What's amazing is the extent people go to downplay the harm and immority of infidelity. Hacking should be a crime but lying and willful harm using false pretense (cheating) is not...? Really shows how bankrupt our moral culture is.
The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked
361–370 of 527 posts
Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
>And now he might die, because of the leak. Isn't this akin to blaming Snowden/Manning for diplomatic fallout instead of blaming those who were engaging in the wrongful practices that led to the fallout.
FYI, for others reading this comment: The wrongful practice implied here is the stoning, not being gay. Took me awhile to figure that out. I almost went on a rant.
tl;dr: In this case, it is the people killing gays who are at fault for gays being killed.
I see three parts. Engaging in gay relationships, the hackers releasing data, and the people who do the stoning.
In the Manning/Snowden case, there are also three parts.
The US doing bad things, Manning/Snowden releasing it, and other governments reacting.
Now, in the Snowden/Manning case, media tries to place blame for 3 on 2 instead of 1, when blame should be placed on 1.
In this case, people seem to be placing blame for 3 on 2, when blame should be placed on 3 (unless you fully believe that gay relationships should end in death, in which case it should be placed on 1, but few people on HN believe that).
So there is a slight difference in that the blame should rest on the initial actor in the Snowden/Manning case while in this case the blame should be on the reacting actor (the ones killing people). But I think it is very similar in trying to blame the data release instead of the responsible party.
Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a great comment, Thomas. I had an argument with my girlfriend about this. No matter what reasoning I used, no matter what I said, she could not agree that it was wrong that Ashley Madison (A.M.) was hacked. Her position was that marital infidelity is such a pubishable offense that the participants on A.M. deserve to be publicly outed. In her view, it was not even up for debate. She felt so powerfully about in…
The elevation of monogamy and closed relationships as the God-given natural status of a couple is the source of too many problems. Same for not living our own sexuality in the open. By acting like this (that is: like you are supposed to) you are constantly prone to blackmail. If you happen to have a wife that is entitled in her social-induced belief that even thinking about other women is good ground for the terminat…
Your "partner" may have three other sexual partners that you know about but that doesn't prevent them from having a forth that they keep hidden from you because they know you'll flip out.
You're not immune to this kind of scandal unless you're in a sexual relationship with somebody and you have no expectation to be made aware of their other sexual activities, in which case you're not in a healthy relationship.
I doubt Bertrand Russel would be very fascinated by polyamory - it's just another concept that works great in theory but becomes endlessly complicated in reality.
Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
As someone who's done this (not for ashleymadison), it's not necessarily 'easy'. Also, many sites that take recurring payments won't allow you to use a prepaid card.
I've done it for some other sites, though not recurring though. My guess is if there's enough balance on the prepaid card (for a pre-auth?), it will work.
I never used AM, but I assume they authorized payments on a subscription (recurring) basis, like every other dating site. If that's the case, the kind of pre-auth is different, and one which prepaid cards would reject.
Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
Infidelity harms some, unless we aren't counting emotional harm.
Infidelity is certainly harmful to someone (emotional harm is a real thing, not to be discounted) but so is exposing people's private lives and peccadilloes. Infidelity is something that should be resolved in private by the parties involved. Whatever you do, someone will find it offensive or harmful to them, for some definition of "harmful" -- even the way you dress, or the music you listen to, or the books you read,…
Considering infidelity can lead to non-consensualy exposing people to STDs and possibly lead to rape (depending upon how you define consent).
Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
Luckily, most of the entire human race agrees with me. Maybe you don't think it's inherently unethical to cheat on your partner. But it is certainly an act of questionable morality. In fact, it is literally illegal in many states: "Adultery isn't just a crime in the eyes of your spouse. In 21 states, cheating in a marriage is against the law, punishable by a fine or even jail time." You, and all of the other moral re…
So the hack was wrong in the remaining 29 states? Sounds like moral relativism right there. In the US, justice must be pursued by legal means, else there's no case. These hackers just removed any chance of prosecution in the 21 states, because of tainted discovery.
I never argued that it was any less wrong in those states. My point in including that line was to demonstrate that I am not the only one who believes that cheating is a moral offense against your partner, worthy of at least some repercussion. In the eyes of 21 states, it is literally a crime. So my moralisms remain absolute, regardless of the other states. The fact remains that if these hackers had not lifted these docs, not one of these incidents would have ever faced their day of reckoning from the spouses they betrayed. That to me, is justice served.
Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
Infidelity harms some, unless we aren't counting emotional harm.
Infidelity is certainly harmful to someone (emotional harm is a real thing, not to be discounted) but so is exposing people's private lives and peccadilloes. Infidelity is something that should be resolved in private by the parties involved. Whatever you do, someone will find it offensive or harmful to them, for some definition of "harmful" -- even the way you dress, or the music you listen to, or the books you read,…
Why? Surely their commitment was public, if the person in question was married. If the state sanctions a contract, in this case marriage, and one party does something to offend that contract, then why not make it public?
Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked
#368Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is more worrying for me is that people in real physical danger would hand over that kind of information in the first place. There's very little stopping an employee at a company from selling this information to governments in these countries, or employees originating from these countries being forced to divulge the information. The real issue is that this information was freely given up in the first place. Hacks…
Why is that worrying? If you're a gay Saudi Arabian (for example) then the only way to be safe is to be celibate. That's not an option for many people. If they weren't hooking up on AM, they'd be using some other service, or making discreet passes at acquaintances, or visiting places where gay people are known to frequent and hoping very strongly that it doesn't get raided while you're there. AM was probably one of t…
Well it would be nicer if being a gay Saudi Arabian wouldn't get you killed.
As for why it's worrying: giving this information to a private company like AM means it's probably going to be leaked. It's worrying that they have to give this kind of information and will end up getting physically hurt for it. The hack is irrelevant as they would end up like this anyway. Is it not worrying for you?
Will each hack or private disclosure be worrying? Because obviously this will happen again. So for me, it's worrying that they're in a position where this will happen.
Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked
#369Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "Either way, debate about polygamy vs. monogamy in this case-scenario is completely irrelevant. Someone was hacked, privacy was violated (it doesn't matter what privacy) and that is the end of that. There's no reason to attach another argument to the discussion because the hack was an outright violation in the first place." Is it that simple? Would the outright violation of a hack be the end of the story if we were…
Pictures don't hurt anyone (except sometimes in the libel/slander sense). But don't stolen credit cards get traded online? Or other impersonation / "identity theft" information? Maybe a marketplace for one of those would be a good example. . The trick is probably making sure that "something that we all agree is wrong" matches with things that actually harm people who didn't freely agree to it. Things like murder, coe…
I don't think that's the trick.
I'm talking about greater goods than privacy and order, goods that make privacy and order good.
And I'm not just talking about things that one group or another really thinks should be illegal. I'm also talking about things that we've decided to tolerate as legal, but which we think are wrong -- maybe even grossly wrong -- and therefore (strongly) disapprove of and want to (strongly) discourage. I don't think things are so simple in those cases, either.
Re: The Ashley Madison Database Was Leaked
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, one way to explain this to your girlfriend is that it is a crime to steal information, even if you are stealing it from people you don't like
Lots of people don't care about that crime. Look at this thread!
understood. They should care because people who go around stealing information will eventually steal their information as well.