Earlier quoted context omitted.
To work hard doesn't necessarily mean long hours.
I totally agree. I don't like the term "working hard", it doesn't mean anything. I'd rather use "efficiency". If you work 70 hours but you do as much as someone working 20 hours, I don't consider that you are working hard. About the low wages for startup employees with high equity; I don't find it right as if you want to attract great workers, you need to offer them something now and not only something which might co…
We need to rethink employee compensation
351–360 of 413 posts
Re: We need to rethink employee compensation
#352No. It was bemoaning how stock options offered to employees by a corporation might, might, be "worth less" when restricted sale is applicable.
Just so we are all on the same page, here is the definition of "stock option" as provided by Merriam-Webster:
> 2 : a right granted by a corporation to officers or employees as a form of compensation that allows purchase of corporate stock at a fixed price usually within a specified period (source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stock%20option)
The article then went into great depth skillfully supporting the author's thesis, done from the perspective of a partner at Y Combinator. All well and good, but what wages do "other people" make?
According to here:
http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/income_weal...
The median household income in 2010 was $49,445 USD. The census does not mention stock options, though I think it reasonable to assume most US workers do not receive such consideration.
Within this thread, "MCRed" shared their experience with stock options:
> Over many years as an employee for startups, I was employee number 24 of a $30M cash acquisition exit. The result was 6 figures, but just. Effectively it was a year's salary.
Since "MCRed" states the options were worth "a year's salary", it is safe to state that "MCRed" made at least $100,000 USD per year.
And "varelse" writes:
> Given that a seasoned and in-demand engineer can make anywhere from $250K to $500K annually working for a big co, without a 3-letter title and 3-letter title equity, there seems little incentive to accept $150K or less and ~0.5% or less equity.
All of this leads to this simple, direct, question: how much do you think people outside of "tech" make in their jobs? Based on the median household income quoted above, the likelyhood is 1/5 to 1/10 what "varelse" estimates (which I think is high nationwide) and minimally 1/2 what "MCRed" was once given above and beyond a paycheck for at least the same amount.
We, all of us in tech, need a reality check. There are literally millions of people in the US along (not including 6.5+ billion other people in the world) which do not come close to "just" the base salary many of us enjoy. And before anyone says "but the market demand...", I say be honest with yourself.
And yet many are boo-hoo'ing over "gee, I didn't get Even More(TM)!"
I tell ya what. Stop by the Walgreen's on Market and 9th (IIRC) in San Francisco and ask someone working there whether or not their stock options offerred to them when hired was worth it for making $50,000 USD less per year. For bonus points, present the same question to the Uber driver dropping you off.
PS: "MCRed" and "varelse" are only two representative examples. Other statements in this thread would serve equally well and I bear no malice toward either "MCRed" or "varelse."
Re: We need to rethink employee compensation
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
Saying they are worthless is being a realist. If you are coming on after a series C you won't be getting any significant equity unless you are joining as leadership, and even then you are in the club and going to be well compensated anyway.
Saying they are worthless shows that you have zero skills at probability. A way to look at options is the way a good poker player tries to play when the bad beat pot is particularly high.
Re: We need to rethink employee compensation
#354Earlier quoted context omitted.
I just had an offer that had, depending on chosen comp .1% to .17% equity with a 10k loss in salary all for an extra .07%. By the way, they have a lot of convertible notes and are pre-series A. I turned around with a counter offer/request that pointed out the equity is largely worthless with no anti-dilution provisions, while seemingly gearing up for a heavy dilution.
Founders don't take dilution unless it makes each existing share more valuable. Unless it's a down round of course. Dilution is life; just accept it. No employee or founder stock will ever have an anti-dilution provision.
Re: We need to rethink employee compensation
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
I used to also believe this, and would parrot it every chance I got, but I've since changed my tune. It's hard to value options. Really, really hard. Saying they're worthless, though, is lazy and counterproductive. If you're joining a seed-stage private company, then yeah, it probably makes sense to so heavily discount the options package that maybe it is close to worthless. But if you're joining a series C that's on…
Being granted equity as a bonus is an incentive. Being granted equity in lieu of salary is asking me to invest in the company. Let's say I'm asking for X salary. If the company offers me Y salary and W equity such that Y + W = X, then what they have done is gotten me to spend W of my salary investing in their company. If this pays off as an investment, that's great, but it isn't due to their generosity, but rather my…
That is exactly right and I think what people are missing here. I mean even legally if you look at options purchases, you are literally investing. Even with stock grants, unless the company defers the strike tax through a loan mechanism, you will pay taxes as though it were real income.
Re: We need to rethink employee compensation
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, on one hand it is a pain the buns for the company in facilitating secondary transactions. On the other, it makes good sense that it should be doable. The secondary markets like Sharespost/Secondmarket don't seem to have made much progress in getting companies on board.
There are a few other secondary solutions, including mine (full disclosure: co-founder of EquityZen here). Ultimately the company (the issuer of the options) holds the cards on these transactions. For a robust secondary private market, you need to: - keep the company aware of the transactions, and understand their transaction process (right of first refusal, board approval, other transfer restrictions) - provide that…
Let's be perfectly frank and talk about the facts here:
1) There is zero cost to the company to allowing 83b elections. All it does is remove the possibility of golden handcuffs (which are very effective when a new unicorn is minted every week).
2) There is no more "500 shareholder rule" after the JOBS act. It removed that. There is no penalty for having lots of shareholders -- especially when most stock transferred has no voting rights and no disclosure rights. Facebook "paid the price" for having lots of shareholders but in reality they did not. GS's investor vehicle took care of that. Facebook was not "forced" to go public. They went public at an incredibly old age as far as growth companies go.
3) There's an almost non-zero cost to have another company (like SecondMarket) handle share registration and transfers. It's not a huge overhead. Consider it your Nerf ammunition cost for the quarter.
4) The state of current stock option agreements is not to help you the employee. It's for the benefit of the company. Option agreements in the 80's and 90's did grow out of an altruistic "hey we're all in this together" theme. Today, it's "hey I have to give you these things because everyone else does, but if it were up to me, you would get bupkis and free meals."
Full disclosure, I work at a YC funded, non-unicorn. My shares (on paper) are worth a fair amount of money, and I need several $100k to buy the shares and pay taxes. I feel like I'm in a not-uncommon state. I know my options are technically worth zero right now since I can't sell them for anything (that is the definition of worth), but I know my wife will divorce me if I quit and walk away from them.
I've heard that Uber is supposedly the worst at this. There's no timeline specified in the option agreement. You must offer them right of first refusal, but there's no mention of timeliness. They can (and do) choose to ignore every share transfer that comes up in a board meeting (unless you're in the elite inner circle and are allowed to sell shares).
tl;dr Don't even consider a position at a company whose option agreement won't let you early exercise and won't let you freely transfer shares.
Re: We need to rethink employee compensation
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just a heads up, the 90 day out clauses are usually put in there by the company lawyers. The only rule the IRS has is that ISO options flip to NSO after 90 days[0]. Take a look at the Pinterest options plan[1], where Pinterest actually gives you 7 years from when you leave to exercise. Your ISO options just flip to NSO after 90 days. [0] http://www.mystockoptions.com/faq/index.cfm/catID/36274DB1-D... [1] http://fortu…
The ISO -> NSO switch can have severe tax consequences for the employee. Even if your company doesn't expire your options in 90 days, consider exercising within 90 days anyway (and talk to a tax lawyer, etc.). One not-as-obvious reason why companies are reluctant to set long expiration dates on options is because it means former employees take up space in the cap table even if they have no intention of ever exercisin…
Please. These are discounted to zero by anyone worth a salt.
Re: We need to rethink employee compensation
#358Re: We need to rethink employee compensation
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've been hit with this too and it's not pretty at all. If anyone else is concerned about this, you should talk with your CEO/legal team about early exercise options which can remove a lot of the risk of massive tax liabilities. From my understanding, some companies offer an early exercise option where you pre-purchase the shares and then instead of being able to buy the shares after they've vested, the company inste…
What you're describing is called "restricted stock" (not to be confused with "restricted stock units", which are entirely different). The idea is that you actually buy the shares upfront at the current 409(a) (legal) valuation, but the company has a right to buy them back if you leave. Founders usually get their shares this way, because at the time of founding the valuation is essentially zero. Early employees may ta…
Re: We need to rethink employee compensation
#360One of the big issues here is that once employees start selling common stock, the strike price of the options can no longer be set at a large discount to the latest valuation as it can when the only transactions are the preferred stock shares that are sold when the company raises money from VCs. One of the most attractive things about employee stock options is that the strike price is often set at 30-40% of the valua…