Drop Dropbox • Hacker News Board

Re: Drop Dropbox

#351

Post by midnitewarrior » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 3:32 PM UTC

spindritf wrote: post #207

tomasien wrote: post #52

Dropping Mozilla because Eich is anti-gay-marriage made sense to me because Mozilla is the beacon of open source. Mozilla belongs to us in a very personal way, many of us have contributed code to Firefox personally. But Condi Rice joining a completely private Dropbox as a board member - this is a non-issue. I'm as strongly anti-Bush administration and anti-war in general (especially the Iraq War - good grief) as anyo…

Dropping Mozilla because Eich is anti-gay-marriage made sense to me because Mozilla is the beacon of open source. The leap from open source to pro-gay sounds like a complete non sequitur to me. What is the reasoning there? I like the way Torvalds put it. For example, the GPLv2 in no way limits your use of the software. If you're a mad scientist, you can use GPLv2'd software for your evil plans to take over the world…

> The leap from open source to pro-gay sounds like a complete non sequitur to me. What is the reasoning there?

Your characterization of it being a "leap to pro-gay" is a bit much. Supporters of Prop 8 are actively trying to deny other Americans rights, many people find this offensive, regardless of the grounds for denial. It echoes racial, gender and age discrimination of the past -- things that many find to be un-American. The fact that the people affected happen to be gay is secondary for many who opposed Prop 8. No American should be legislated as a second class citizen.

Open Source is about open access, both to contribute and use. Prop 8 was trying to deny people access to government, rights and benefits. These attitudes are in direct opposition.

Beyond the ideological friction, you are dividing the community of users and contributors -- people who support gay rights and marriage equality somehow feel like they are supporting somebody who is trying to change society by denying people rights.

Mozilla isn't driven by profit, it's driven by the goodwill of its users and contributors. Mr. Eich was well aware of the sensitive nature of people's attitudes towards his contribution -- he's tried for years to make it a non-issue, but it has kept following him.

It's not that Open Source is "pro-gay rights", it's that it is pro-open access and equality. Mr. Eich's contribution shows contempt for this ideal at some level. It appears that many had issue with this.

Additionally, Google, Mozilla's largest financial contributor, is a company that has actively taken a strongly anti-Prop 8 stance. Having the leader of the Mozilla Foundation be openly in opposition to Google's stance brings questions about if this will ultimately affect Mozilla's funding.

Mr. Eich's technical leadership and history with Mozilla probably qualifies him as a very competent leader for the organization, however the political realities of Mozilla's relationship with Google and the open source community's ideals creates doubt about the realities of his ability to manage these important relationships between Google, users and contributors.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#352

Post by silvertonia » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 3:32 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #336

JasonFruit wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you cancel your Dropbox membership now, you will affect their measurements as though you're doing it in response to this kerfuffle. I'm in exactly the same position you are — I've found a better service, so I'm backing up my Dropbox stuff to it and letting Dropbox idle until this blows over. I don't want to encourage political and moral witch-hunts in tech (or other) companies.

[deleted]

I think you misunderstood. It sounds like he's keeping his DropBox account active for a while until this blows over, then will actually cut it off.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#353

Post by CamperBob2 » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 3:32 PM UTC

mason240 wrote: post #287

Looks like we are living a new age of McCarthyism.

Except McCarthy was seeking to destroy numerous people who had done nothing wrong. Other than that, yeah, it's the same.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#354

Post by king_jester » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 3:32 PM UTC

pvnick wrote: post #253

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, I absolutely agree with most of the opposition to Condi Rice wrt the illegal war, warrantless wiretaps, torture, etc. On the other hand, I threw a hissy fit over the opposition to Eich based on his beliefs. I'm not sure how I can oppose Rice while standing up for Eich without inconsistency. Anybody else feel conflicted and have some insight? I'm still probably goin…

> I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, I absolutely agree with most of the opposition to Condi Rice wrt the illegal war, warrantless wiretaps, torture, etc. On the other hand, I threw a hissy fit over the opposition to Eich based on his beliefs. I'm not sure how I can oppose Rice while standing up for Eich without inconsistency.

The issue here isn't just about someone's personal beliefs. Eich and Rice both operate at very high levels within their organizations and that means they both have a leadership role and are representatives of those companies to the larger public. When people have a problem with those people's actions and point of view, they most certainly have a right to voice that disagreement.

It is important to note that a personal belief which is discriminatory (Eich) does not make that belief legitimate. Why exactly should Eich be defended at all? Support of legalized discrimination against groups of people is morally reprehensible, even if you think marriage isn't that big of an issue. In the case of Rice, a track record of getting people tortured and killed is horrifying and this person should not be supported.

When a business selects someone to join a C-level position or its board of directors, they are endorsing that person completely, including the unseemly things they do or endorse that do not directly relate to the company. You can't separate the two, a company is empowering a person to a degree when they get that position and that is a form of direct support of that person.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#355

Post by guptaneil » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 3:33 PM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #189

tomasien wrote: post #52

Dropping Mozilla because Eich is anti-gay-marriage made sense to me because Mozilla is the beacon of open source. Mozilla belongs to us in a very personal way, many of us have contributed code to Firefox personally. But Condi Rice joining a completely private Dropbox as a board member - this is a non-issue. I'm as strongly anti-Bush administration and anti-war in general (especially the Iraq War - good grief) as anyo…

>> "Dropping Mozilla because Eich is anti-gay-marriage made sense to me because Mozilla is the beacon of open source. Mozilla belongs to us in a very personal way, many of us have contributed code to Firefox personally." I feel the opposite. Eich's opinion (which I don't agree with) was unlikely to impact his work. Rice was part of the administration that created PRISM. I don't want her anywhere near a company I'm su…

You might have the opinion that universal health care is bad for this country. I would disagree with you, but that would be your personal opinion and I couldn't fault you for it, whatever I may think of you privately.

But if you believe all colored people should be enslaved and donate money towards making it happen, then we all should fault you because that's not an acceptable opinion, it's bigotry. Similarly, stripping gay men and women of their civil liberties is bigotry that should not be tolerated.

Rice's actions have also resulted in harming our civil liberties and I don't support her, but I can't fault Drew Houston for wanting her on their Board. Anybody who has the chance to add somebody as powerful and well-connected as Rice to their Board would be stupid not to. She is there to advise, not lead. I don't believe her presence on the Board will make Dropbox any more or less trustworthy with our data than before. If Dropbox is going to leak our private data now, then that's a company that would've done so without Rice as well.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#356

Post by rmc » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 3:33 PM UTC

steve_benjamins wrote: post #293

spktrthhrts wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between Eich and Rice. Eich didn't torture and murder people.

You are inferring that being in a US administration while US sanctioned murder and torture occurs, means that the leader therefore murdered and tortured people. Which puts Condi in a large group of people: nearly every member of a US administration in the last century. Edit: Jesus. A lot of people missed the point of what I said. All I did was argue the issue is more nuanced than "[Condi Rice] tortured and murdered p…

The Secretary of State is 4th in the line of succession. They aren't just "in a US administration". They're at the top.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#357

Post by Touche » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 3:33 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #288

Touche wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem we have with our society today is that we gravitate towards absolute positions on every contentious issue. When you are absolutely certain about something it is a small leap to then believe that those who disagree are doing so maliciously. To fix this we have to find a way to reward tempered opinions. The absolutism in our society is becoming stronger over time and it's further dividing us.

If the action is destructive, and the person hasn't regretted it, does it become acceptable just because s/he has done it with the best of intentions? On the contrary: "those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience" . If anything, it's even more dangerous to trust in someone who believed and continues to believe in what they were doing, than…

But regret is incompatible with our society's love affair with absolute certainty. One cannot simply admit that they were wrong (even to themselves) because we so value perfect intuition.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#358

Post by gnopgnip » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 3:33 PM UTC

maxcan wrote: post #221

jshen wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bush administration asserted that it could detain anyone without a trial and torture them. This is not equivalent to any average administration as you implied.

The current administration asserted that it has the right to assassinate anyone it wants, American citizen or not, outside of a battlefield, without any oversight or due process.

Could you provide a source for this? There is an entire process that is full of oversight.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#359

Post by JackFr » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 3:34 PM UTC

smutticus wrote: post #307

JackFr wrote: post #157

Consider that when acting under uncertainty, intelligent, informed people of good will can examine the same set of facts and reach different conclusions. It has become an article of faith that the Bush administration acted in bad faith about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, while all that really has ever been shown is that they were tragically, woefully and extraordinarily wrong. How intelligent, well educated pe…

Then why did the Bush administration go out of its way to destroy Valerie Plame's career at the CIA? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair People at the CIA were telling the administration that they had it wrong. They just didn't want to hear it since it didn't fit with their narrative, and didn't align with their goal of war. The truth was irrelevant at that point.

It seems to me you're agreeing with me.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#360

Post by janj » Thu, Apr 10, 2014, 3:34 PM UTC

pvnick wrote: post #253

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, I absolutely agree with most of the opposition to Condi Rice wrt the illegal war, warrantless wiretaps, torture, etc. On the other hand, I threw a hissy fit over the opposition to Eich based on his beliefs. I'm not sure how I can oppose Rice while standing up for Eich without inconsistency. Anybody else feel conflicted and have some insight? I'm still probably goin…

They can keep her on their board but it's our duty to react in ways that are consistent with our own personal values. My wife was recruited this morning for an HR position with Dropbox. We briefly imagined how exciting the opportunity might be but I quickly recoiled at the thought of her being so closely affiliated with a war criminal. It's their decision to have whomever they want on their board, it's our duty to respond appropriately.