Live data from Hacker News

Tao: Open math problems being non-renewably mined by AI

mathstodon.xyz

351–360 of 367 posts

Re: Tao: Open math problems being non-renewably mined by AI

#351
post #223

From "Jokester" by Isaac Asimov 1956: "Early in the history of Multivac, it had become apparent that there was one big bottleneck: the questioning procedure. Multivac could answer the problems of humanity, all the problems, if -- if it were asked meaningful questions. But as knowledge accumulated at an ever-faster rate, it became ever more difficult to locate those meaningful questions." [0] https://web.archive.org/w…

I'd say that a more appropriate reference from that time would be "The Nine Billion Names of God" by Arthur C. Clarke [1], which actually deals with the finiteness of the list of problems that a machine successfully exhausts. [1]: https://hex.ooo/library/nine_billion_names_of_god.html

>>which actually deals with the finiteness of the list of problems that a machine successfully exhausts.

This is already the case with most DevOps jobs with Claude Code. There are only that many finite issues that need fixing in production, even for very large systems.

So you don't need all that many people to run ops these days.

Re: Tao: Open math problems being non-renewably mined by AI

#352
post #303
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in the sense that you reading a book from the library also constitutes theft of knowledge. Does it?

If I stole someone's private research notes and republished them loosely in my own words, they'd correctly be pissed This was unpublished research that was stolen, and constitutes plagiarism and academic fraud by even the strictest definition

They are not “private research notes” if they are generated by an LLM.

Re: Tao: Open math problems being non-renewably mined by AI

#353
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's nothing that AI won't be able to mine and accomplish (aside from being literally human), it's only a matter of hardware and scale at this point. Sure there is: problems that require knowledge that simply doesn't exist yet. Until "AI" turns into general purpose robots that can develop new tools to explore the world, it is, in fact, pretty damned limited in what it can do without human help. The world is vast…

> problems that require knowledge that simply doesn't exist yet. Obtaining the knowledge is a process of trial and error, bruteforce, observation, search, etc. Humans follow that same process. Machines can do that too. If they discover or are taught the same heuristics humans use, and a computational capacity greater than that of all humans combined, they will outpace us in this endeavour. > Until "AI" turns into gen…

> Obtaining the knowledge is a process of trial and error, bruteforce, observation, search, etc. Humans follow that same process. Machines can do that too. If they discover or are taught the same heuristics humans use, and a computational capacity greater than that of all humans combined, they will outpace us in this endeavour.

Sure, you can reduce the 99.9% of research labor that matters to "a process of trial and error, bruteforce, observation, search, etc.", but that's like saying that nuclear fusion is only a few technical details away from implementation. We already know the theory!

The part where you're closest to being correct is "trial and error" -- it would be great if a robot existed that could do any experiment, tirelessly, with the mechanical fidelity, intelligence and creativity of a human. That robot does not exist. Moreover, the fundamental techniques to do the kinds of observation necessary to unlock the parts of science we don't know about do not exist. They must be invented. So now we have two problems. The problems are recursive and interlocking.

Biology and chemistry are the sciences I know best, so I will use those examples -- every major breakthrough of the last 50 years has involved invention of some fundamental new mode of observation, such as crystallography, NMR, mass spec, electron microscopy, various kinds of light microscopy, DNA sequencing, PCR, etc. Someone invents some innovative technique, and a wave of progress happens. Expert practitioners in in the lab are probably the second rate-limiting step, but the part that LLMs can do -- taking data and turning it into hypotheses -- is the part that carries the least value. Any postdoc has enough ideas to keep a lab going forever.

The thing you linked about Anthropic creating a "robot standard" for operation of lab tools is great for Anthropic, but that's about all. There's tons of lab automation tooling already. Having LLMs run the microscope is maybe a cool automation technique if you have the kinds of experiments that benefit from it, but those are rare, and they're still ultimately limited by people doing the upstream work.

AI will certainly help people be more efficient at their current scientific jobs, make better methodology more universal, etc., but suggesting that it will replace actual scientists is just science fiction.

Re: Tao: Open math problems being non-renewably mined by AI

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My computer contains the prime factorization of probably several dozen (if not more) large integers, and I refuse to share them with anyone! (Because they are my private RSA keys)

Why are you still using RSA?

Wait what ? Does nobody use RSA anymore ?

Re: Tao: Open math problems being non-renewably mined by AI

#355
There's an analogous (albeit, far less existential) problem in software development. If the answer to, "what should we build next?" is simply, "yes" (so to speak), then the real value is in the discernment of "what is most valuable, useful, sustainable, and/or meaningful thing to build next".

Re: Tao: Open math problems being non-renewably mined by AI

#357
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You miss the point. Humans don't mind competing with others. I love competition, but I don't want to compete with you and your machine. I love to play chess, I don't care if you are grand master, whoop my ass. But not if you are going to pair up with stockfish. I don't even care if you are a newbie that started playing yesterday with an ELO rating of 900. If I wanted to play the damn computer I'll do it myself. Likew…

Could you tell the difference between a grandmaster and stockfish if playing them online? If not, why would you care which one you are playing against?

I think I'd care because the entity on the other side cares about the game in a similar way to me. It's not just the technical details of how the pieces move, it's a human interaction.

Re: Tao: Open math problems being non-renewably mined by AI

#358
post #351
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that a more appropriate reference from that time would be "The Nine Billion Names of God" by Arthur C. Clarke [1], which actually deals with the finiteness of the list of problems that a machine successfully exhausts. [1]: https://hex.ooo/library/nine_billion_names_of_god.html

>>which actually deals with the finiteness of the list of problems that a machine successfully exhausts. This is already the case with most DevOps jobs with Claude Code. There are only that many finite issues that need fixing in production, even for very large systems. So you don't need all that many people to run ops these days.

Yet as a customer I don't think I've got to endure as many outages in my life before 2026 as I did for the past 9 months…

And it's not just github, everything seems to be down on a daily basis right now.

Re: Tao: Open math problems being non-renewably mined by AI

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But this is hard for mathematicians to stomach, because like everyone else, deep down in a place where they don't like to talk about at parties, they have egos and a sense of purpose based in part on demonstrating mastery of a technically difficult field, as well as social connections based on their participation in it, and taking all that away from them probably feels like a kind of death. The situation is not…

I totally understand and agree, I just feel like with the progress that we have in automating informational work, you are going to have an exponential amount of these "deaths" as new fields where humans can provide any kind of value get more and more short-lived. At some point in my suggestion the machine will ask better questions than you, and that will be pointless as well, and you keep doing what you like doing, o…

At some point from your description there will be no need for human workers at all. The real question is what happens as we continue to advance in that direction and we eliminate mathematicians, and then more broadly scientists and engineers, tech workers, and all knowledge workers. People can’t “doing what you like doing” if it doesn’t support them being able to make a living.

It sounds like it could be a pretty horrible world for the majority of people, especially if the AI overlords are only concerned about themselves (be it a small number of people who control the AIs, or the AIs themselves becoming independent entities that prioritize their own lives).

Re: Tao: Open math problems being non-renewably mined by AI

#360
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, many mathematicians have. As Tao points out, merely suggesting new open questions isn't really sufficient. Part of what gives these problems their fame is their notoriety, their difficulty, the fact that many prodigious mathematicians have spent an evening or week or month or several years studying it. It wouldn't be as interesting if it had just been solved by the fifth random mathematician who considered it No…

Mathematics isn't art. It doesn't gain its value in human affairs from being interesting to study. I fail to see why we should cater to that.

Yes, open source isn't art either, yet my point is that the same principle applies to both

There are many ways to stop progress and productivity

Post reply on HN