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Google broke reCAPTCHA for de-googled Android users

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Re: Google broke reCAPTCHA for de-googled Android users

#351
post #106

I've kept a spare cheap android for too long and recently went with Graphene instead. I have one Google profile and only use it for Uber, work's Google Chat and maps. One bank refused to work (even with Google services) so I moved bank. I've moved most of my mobile use to self hosted (freshrss full text, password manager, calendar, tasks) with no direct internet connection. It's a bit irritating but I'm glad I starte…

My setup is similar and nearly 100% self-hosted, including email, files, AI. If something does not work on Graphene, I will do without it. I also have a Google profile, mostly for testing purposes.

I said it already in another comment, but if you care enough to use GrapheneOS, I believe you should not only "do without it". You should also complain to those services.

If enough people complain, those services will start caring. If all they see is "one user complains every 3 years", they will just ignore it. That's how it works.

Re: Google broke reCAPTCHA for de-googled Android users

#352
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have access to a commercial (non-residential), fixed IP. You could also use an outgoing relay as a compromise, since presumably the issue you are facing is other servers rejecting email that you send from a disreputable IP. That being said, you really want a fixed IP as a matter of convenience if you are going to self-host anything.

How often are your emails being marked as spam, for others? A few years ago it read like there’s a whole science behind avoiding getting flagged. Is this easier now with agents aiding the setup?

I imagine an agent would make a lot of the first time setup from scratch easier, but the fastest reliable way to get up and running is mail-in-a-box or mailcow. Before those were available I built a flurdy style Postfix+Courier+Amavisd+MySQL setup and have been evolving it ever since. Now I'm on Postfix+Dovecot+rspamd+MySQL but I don't think that's for everyone or even the best way to start.

The science of not getting flagged is easy when you're not sending large volumes of untrusted mail; it only gets complicated if you start hosting mail for "customers" or let your system forward mail unfiltered into gmail/yahoo.

Here's my hit list of universal things to configure:

* Start with an IP with good or neutral reputation, non-residential, its nearly impossible to fix an IP that has been burned by a spammer. (Network)

* Valid reverse dns for your IP matching your mailhost forward dns (DNS)

* Valid SPF record; -all (DNS)

* Valid DKIM; with sufficiently sized key (DNS+Config)

* Valid DMARC; start with p=none to test and move to p=reject once you're configured (DNS)

* ARC if you or your users will ever possibly forward mail (Config)

* Don't get your messages flagged as spam anywhere ever, filter outbound mail even if its just you. All it takes is one piece of malware and a saved password and you'll have to get a new IP. (Config)

* Don't configure services behind your mail server with example domains that you don't control ~ I get so much mis-configured test mail from people who think its cute to use my domain as an example in their practice lab. It all gets reported as spam or bounces and then their smart host bounce rate goes up. (Config)

* Test for open relay; only relay for authenticated users. (Config)

* Use strong authentication, preferably with certificates or MFA. (Config)

* Secure everything; IMAP/SMTP/POP are old AF make sure you're requiring STARTTLS and setup MTA-STS to prevent downgrade attacks and enforce encryption in transit. Use a real certificate from Lets Encrypt don't self-sign. (DNS+http+Config)

* fail2ban your auth, you're going to get so much driveby password spraying and credential stuffing; I fail2ban block entire subnets at a time with iptables actions. I also have a bunch of "poison pill" rules for weird stuff I see in my logs eg block anyone who tries to auth with the NTLM hash for 'password'. (Config)

* Don't bother with BIMI at home, you can't get a blue check mark without deep pockets and a trademark (vmc) and most platforms only show logos that have a matching vmc. (DNS+https+config)

* DMARC reporting and TLS-RPT reporting are a pain to manage but are helpful troubleshooting deliverability be prepared to read some XML reports or setup a stack to parse them as they arrive (DNS + Config + https)

* setup the SMTP Submission port (587), so many networks block port 25 outbound and its the right way for clients to connect. (Config)

* configure BACKUPS, don't skip this step, encrypted restic backups to s3 or backblaze b2 is cheap and easy. (config)

* track your configs in git, don't commit secrets. (config)

* configure a free blacklist monitor on mxtoolbox for your domain(s) (config)

If you do those things you'll be in a pretty good spot, you could probably paste that list/this post into your agent and vibe up solid mailserver.

For me keeping the spam and phishing out is a bigger hassle than deliverability issues. rspamd does a pretty good job of keeping it manageable.

I do all of those things and with all of that setup the only place I ever run into issues with with users on AT&T's residential broadband mail servers. AT&T appears to block you if you're not known to them and they have a short memory. If you don't have regular correspondence with AT&T users they will block you after a bit. I'm a fairly low volume sender so I end up blocked every other time I try to send to AT&T by no fault of my own. I've talked most of those friends off of AT&Ts free email and on to ProtonMail at this point.

Re: Google broke reCAPTCHA for de-googled Android users

#353
post #104

I would love to see someone challenge this as an anti-trust violation. Google is using its market power (as the provider of reCAPTCHA) to actively prevent devices that don’t use Google Play Services from competing effectively.

It's worse than forcing the Play Services: strict Play Integrity requires your system to be signed by Google. So if you use the Play Services on GrapheneOS, you're still locked out.

Re: Google broke reCAPTCHA for de-googled Android users

#354
post #292
post #104

I would love to see someone challenge this as an anti-trust violation. Google is using its market power (as the provider of reCAPTCHA) to actively prevent devices that don’t use Google Play Services from competing effectively.

They're only doing that because the EU currently doesn't want to antagonize US any more with their tech fines. Noticed how there hasn't been any as of recently?

> because the EU currently doesn't want to antagonize US any more with their tech fines

Yeah, I say it as "because the US bully the EU to prevent them from doing it".

Re: Google broke reCAPTCHA for de-googled Android users

#355

I did something unpopular and just didn't have a captcha, I just read up on creepjs etc and rolled out my own which is just browser state analysis, basic ip check (abuse lists only) and PoW. Haven't had an issue with a single bot registration (yet).

A simple captcha with distorted characters + some hidden form fields would stop every single "opportunistic" bot.

There's hardly anything you can do to stop someone determined enough to spend money to spam your specific website. These kinds of captchas do raise the bar somewhat, but every single one of them is ultimately bypassed by paying people to solve them for you.

Re: Google broke reCAPTCHA for de-googled Android users

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly... but the extension of this to Android and Apple is going to be the entire internet shuts you out. And everything else will be a giant Dead Internet crawling with bots.

I have to see. As much as I don't like Murena and /e/OS, they seem to have some clout with the EU/EC. Given that they are using microG and also hit by this, they might be able to nudge the EC to act on this. Also, personally I care less and less. As long as my banks and government apps work, I'll just not use somebody's service if they put up barriers like this.

> Also, personally I care less and less. As long as my banks and government apps work

If most people care less and less, the result would be that banks and government apps will also work less and less.

Look, companies have to prioritise. And the obvious way to prioritise is to say "users are requesting X A LOT and nobody requests Y, so we will do X". Companies never, EVER say "it would be more ethical to do Y, let's do Y".

As people, we can do two things:

* Push our governments to regulate that shit. That means, complain a lot to the government.

* Be vocal to companies and complain when they don't support your system. If enough people do that, it will be prioritised.

Re: Google broke reCAPTCHA for de-googled Android users

#357

To be fair, there are already apps that require a mobile phone to sign up, for example, VK, Telegram. And I think Google requires to scan a QR code to register account, so it is easier just to buy a Google account on a black market if you need it for some purpose. Nobody trusts web browsers nowadays.

VK has been digging its own grave for quite some time now. Hardly anyone uses it any more. It's speedrunning enshittification with that registration thing but also with the very unpopular post redesign, the removal of custom news feeds, and most recently with shutting off most of the API access for third-party apps, including popular client apps like Kate Mobile.

Re: Google broke reCAPTCHA for de-googled Android users

#358
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least with an Android i have the option of Graphene, and have access to a terminal, and for now can sideload apps. With apple there's no choices, so I'll continue to take my chances with Android

Can Graphene OS pass this kind of Google attestation challenge, though?

No.

The hardware attestation (which is used by strict Play Integrity) checks the signature on your OS. It is totally possible to allow signatures other than Google, but Play Integrity doesn't do that.

Companies could totally decide to use hardware attestation and accept systems signed not only by Google, but also other systems (like GrapheneOS). But they don't care because not enough users complain to them.

Users of alternative Androids typically silently move to another service or stop using it entirely. Which is understandable but doesn't help the cause.

Re: Google broke reCAPTCHA for de-googled Android users

#359
post #340
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Felt same way about GrapheneOS but a few friends set it up so i gave it a try. It is easy to install and use. As evidence, I gave my 70 year old father one and he loves it.

Can you run Graphene on non Pixel phones?

Not yet. They've partnered with Motorola, though, so we'll probably be seeing some of their phones in the future that can run GrapheneOS.

Re: Google broke reCAPTCHA for de-googled Android users

#360

Given the way Google is going I'm not sure if my next phone will be Android. I am fully aware that I am probably in the minority here. For me the trust is entirely gone.

Motorola + GrapheneOS next year could be an alternative. So far they've been relatively insulated from the changes that have been coming down from Google.

Motorola won't change a thing about hardware attestation. GrapheneOS is locked out from reCAPTCHA because GrapheneOS is signed by GrapheneOS and not by Google.

The way it's going, by the time the Motorola + GrapheneOS phone is out, it will be a lot more painful to use GrapheneOS than today. Not because of GrapheneOS of course, but because everybody accepts that bullshit Google is doing.

If you're waiting for Motorola + GrapheneOS, you could start complaining to banks and other apps that don't support GrapheneOS :-). If enough people did that, maybe those companies would consider it.

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