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Online age verification is the hill to die on

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Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#351

Post by kyledrake »

Bender wrote: post #8

The one and only method I will participate in is server operators setting a RTA header [1] for URL's that may contain adult or user-generated or user-contributed content and the clients having the option to detect that header and trigger parental controls if they are enabled by the device owner. That should suffice to protect most small children. Teens will always get around anything anyone implements as they are alr…

Interesting, I've never heard of this. I see an example that involves an HTTP response header "Rating: RTA-5042-1996-1400-1577-RTA". But does this actually still get used by parental controls? I didn't run into a lot of documentation about this, including on the very badly designed RTA web site https://www.rtalabel.org/

For anyone curious about the value, the numbering on the value is just a fixed number everybody decided to use for some reason that isn't clear to me.

I would deeply prefer to do it this way, but my goodness the RTA org needs a serious brush up of their web site and information on how to use this.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#352

Post by [deleted] »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #221
dylan604 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so sure about that. Handing an ID to a bouncer at a bar or similar is not logging anything. Mainly it's some big man that you can see gears turning to see if the date is correct and a cursory glance to see if the photo matches. Sophisticated places might have a scanner that does what ever validation it does, but again, it's just another cursory check of the photo. Most of these people really don't care. A tech co…

The tech companies care even less than the bouncers do. They just want a plausible defence should it ever end up in court.

[deleted]

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#353

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

Barbing wrote: post #119
ethagnawl wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course Chuck Schumer won't let me contact him using this helpful tool. Perhaps we NYers should organize a rally outside his office in Manhattan like we did for PIPA/SOPA?

Dumb- BUT immediate links to sites of the right legislators! Adam B. Schiff Sorry, this legislator cannot be contacted with our tool. To message them, visit their website instead. Alex Padilla Sorry, this legislator cannot be contacted with our tool. To message them, visit their website instead.

They do have a physical address, and stamps aren't that expensive.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#354

Post by numpad0 »

btilly wrote: post #216
big85 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in the late 90s or so, there was a proposal to have sites voluntarily set an age header, so parents/employers/etc could use to block the site if they wish. People said it would never work, because adult sites had a financial incentive not to opt in to reduce their own traffic.

People were wrong. We pay money online mostly through credit cards. Credit card transactions can be reversed. If children spend money on porn, those payments are likely to be reversed. This is really bad for the ability of the porn sites to continue receiving credit card payments, and continue making money. An age header is a trivial step that can reduce the odds of the adult site receiving payments that later get re…

There was a random comment here on HN few days back that adult contents have lower chargeback rates than everything else.

So ig stop spreading hallucinatory misinformations?

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#355

Post by unselect5917 »

dylan604 wrote: post #188
ronsor wrote: post #121

There's an angle everyone misses. Mandatory age surveillance everywhere is only going to result in massive, normalized ID fraud. You thought fake and stolen IDs were a problem before? You haven't seen anything yet. And half of it will be from adults trying to avoid privacy invasion.

Not so sure about that. Handing an ID to a bouncer at a bar or similar is not logging anything. Mainly it's some big man that you can see gears turning to see if the date is correct and a cursory glance to see if the photo matches. Sophisticated places might have a scanner that does what ever validation it does, but again, it's just another cursory check of the photo. Most of these people really don't care. A tech co…

>Not so sure about that. Handing an ID to a bouncer at a bar or similar is not logging anything. Mainly it's some big man that you can see gears turning to see if the date is correct and a cursory glance to see if the photo matches. Sophisticated places might have a scanner that does what ever validation it does, but again, it's just another cursory check of the photo. Most of these people really don't care.

Not necessarily true. There's a local stripclub that scans and saves the scan to fight chargebacks and the like. It is definitely logging stuff. They've told me that they were going through the logs once and the bartender ended up googling my fullname. We're cool and I didn't care, but this what you said is not a blanket true statement. I trust a physical business that I can visit far more than some ID verification company that is going to get hacked at some point.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#356

Post by jumpman_miya »

znnajdla wrote: post #278

In the age of AI I think it’s only necessary and inevitable to implement some of kind of internet ID system to stop the massive onslaught of AI generated fraud, malicious hacking, and spam. If age verification is a Trojan horse to erase online anonymity, so be it, I see that as a worthy goal. Humans are inherently social, and social networks are based on trust. Trust is primarily a function of reputation, peer pressu…

[dead]

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#357

Post by streetfighter64 »

nonethewiser wrote: post #275
streetfighter64 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironic that he's relying on the same ridiculous "think of the children" rhetoric that's being used to promote age verification. Really says a thing or two about online discourse in our day and age.

Do you think children are harmed by porn? Did you know it's illegal to distribute porn to a minor in the US? It seems reasonable to me to hold porn companies responsible for distributing porn to minors.

That's a discussion that's entirely tangential to age verification. However, I think porn should be illegal entirely as it's just prostitution. As such I think porn companies should not exist, the same as brothels or heroin dealers. If they have to exist for practical reasons along with other objectively harmful things, such as alcohol, marijuana or gambling, then obviously they should be regulated to ensure they're not targeting minors.

That does not detract from the fact that the people arguing for age verification are using "think of the children" in order to push surveillance.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#358

Post by unselect5917 »

dylan604 wrote: post #346
basisword wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also use them to flag people who've been previously banned and the systems work across venues. The idea that verification in the real world is cursory is not accurate.

The vast majority of places I frequent do not even have a person at the door checking IDs. If the bar tender/server thinks you look young, they ask for ID. I clearly do not look to be too young, so there's that. The last place I went to with an actual scanner was more of a nightclub that had a cover charge.

Anecdotal evidence is weak (not) evidence.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#359

Post by jlhawn »

This seems hyperbolic as it's actually a long path between age verification to full digital identity tracking. But I agree that pushing the burden of verification to websites is ridiculous. Like the GDPR requirements where every webpage has an annoying consent modal, the verification and preferences should be controlled on the device you use to access these digital services. My browser should know and enforce my cookie preferences in a way that has a uniform user experience. Likewise, if I am a minor, my parent should provide me with a device (or profile on a device) which knows my age and can use that to inform online services of the age of the user rather than needing to go through a separate process for each service.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#360

Post by mikestorrent »

bluGill wrote: post #300
Bender wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good idea. There could be two headers, the existing RTA header that adult sites use today [1] and another static header that explicitly states there shall be no adult content. [1] - https://www.shodan.io/search?query=RTA-5042-1996-1400-1577-R... [THESE ARE ADULT SITES, NSFW]

What is adult content? I know parents who have no problem with their kids seeing porn. I know parents who give their kids a beer. I know parents who take their kids to violent movies. I used to know parents who will give their kids cigarettes. Most parents I know will disagree with their kids doing one of the above. I know songs that were played on the radio in 1960 that would not be allowed today, even though today…

> I know parents who have no problem with their kids seeing porn.

Surely you mean at least teenagers, and not literally children, right? Consider the prevalence of violence, racial stereotyping, and escalation of fetishism into degeneracy that clearly exists within this medium; what's the line that these parents draw? Are they making sure it's only something vanilla? Or is there no line whatsoever?

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