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The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

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Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, but at some point you're just banning "manufacturing". if someone wants to make a gun... they can. It's not complex to manufacturer simple firearms - we managed it as far back as the freaking 10th century. So why freak out over this, for example, and not CNCs? Or Power tools? Or forges (CHF barrels are a thing too!)?

> yeah, but at some point you're just banning "manufacturing". I mean I’m not in favor of this 3D printing law but manufacturing guns without appropriate licenses is illegal already. They’re trying to target consumer 3D printers for the same reason your paper printer refuses to print currency. Anyone with any engineering knowledge can see why the 3D printing analogy doesn’t work because there isn’t a fixed set of mod…

>Anyone with any engineering knowledge can see why the 3D printing analogy doesn’t work because there isn’t a fixed set of models being banned.

Also because you can manufacture the exact thing with a lump that you just saw off later (or with a hole you fill with epoxy), or slightly larger / smaller / bent / etc., and it'll be functionally the same.

A functional piece of counterfeit currency needs to be identical to legal currency by the definition of currency; being indistinguishable from the real thing is the only function (otherwise, what you have is a piece of paper).

That doesn't apply to anything whose function isn't "looking exactly like this specific thing".

If the legislation aimed to by museum-grade visual replicas of certain shapes (e.g. an exact scaled down copy of Michelangelo's David), it'd be a technically challenging, but feasible problem.

But the problem they're trying to solve amounts to detecting the manufacturing of pieces with a certain function algorithmically, and forcing that spyware into every machine.

To boot, any form of algorithmic inference of the sort will require much more computing power than a 3D printer ever had.

That's ignoring the feasibility of solving the problem of "can this be a part of a gun", or even the much simpler one "is this part functionally the same as this other part" without giving a false positive on everything (as the saying goes, anything thing is a dildo if you are brave enough; guns aren't much different).

What I'm saying is that zero engineering knowledge is required to understand that requiring machines to refuse to make exact visual replicas of objects isn't the same as trying to restrict function.

I.e. that checking if two flat designs look the same is not hard, but checking if two designs will function somewhat similarly if manufactured is a God-tier problem.

_____

TL;DR: the only thing you can check by looking is looks.

And while that's all that matters for currency, it's irrelevant for guns.

Hope someone explains it to them legal folls. Ain't no engineering knowledge required for it.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#352

> The primary goal is clear and simple: to require 3D printer manufacturers to use a state-certified algorithm that checks digital design files for firearm components and blocks print jobs that would produce prohibited parts. "state-certified algorithm" has a really nice tyrannic ring to it. I am sure once this has passed the rich people can finally sleep at night knowing they are safe from roving gangs of armed Mang…

"Error, you cannot print toiletpart.stl because there is no open permit for the the address at which this printer is registered, contact a licensed plumber during normal business hours" Don't laugh, this sort of regulatory capture type crap is exactly where it'll trickle down to if they get what they want for guns.

Also: "I see you are trying to print a hollow cylinder. Sorry, you can't print gun barrels"

Also: "The Letter_C.stl can't be printed because it is an 88% percent match for a gun trigger"

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#353

As an unabashed American, guns are amazing and an insanely important part of our national culture. Any attempt to diminish this is an attack on the culture of America. We are a nation of dangerous freedoms and matching individual responsibility. In order to maintain a functional country without ruining what makes America special, we need to simply actually enforce laws and I'll take apart in making our national cultu…

I wouldn't be proud of having so many guns and the highest rate of gun deaths by far in the developed world (except maybe countries currently at war). "Guns are amazing"? Really? Nevermind, I know someone just like you. He refuses to fly on an airplane because he can't bring his precious guns with him on the plane . So he's really never been anywhere outside of the midwest. He has no idea how other countries are. And…

You may be surprised, but there are countries in Europe where gun ownership is relatively wide spread and it just works. Czech Republic for example has it access to guns guaranteed in Charter of Fundamental Rights and Freedoms[1].

One of the reasons why it works, is that there are reasonable conditions. For example, regular health checks, strict registration, passing gun safety examination and, last but not least, not being a criminal. And it works. Despite steadily rising number of guns among people, it is one of most safe countries in the world.

Canada, Finland, Austria and many other countries, prove, that you don't have to impose blanket bans to have a safe country. You just need sensible laws.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_the_Czech_Republic

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care how good you are, you cannot 3D print a barrel that will withstand the pressure forces generated by a centerfire round.

Kind of interesting how many of these comments are confidently denying what the 3D printed gun nuts already pulled off 13 years ago. I would never in a million years want to be around one being fired, but there have been big internet communities pulling this off going back a long time https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/11/feds-get-in-on-3...

You just linked an article that shows that entirely 3D printed guns don't work.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like everything in the United States, it’s actually gun manufacturers that want to clamp down on this cottage industry which threatens their profits. I don’t buy for a second that this is some gun control attempt.

Any gun company caught funding anything remotely anti-2A would be met with an unbelievably negative reaction from the firearms community and face boycotts and massive reputational damage. It absolutely would not be worth it for them to do this. I can maybe see the arguments that perhaps it’s really a proxy for the anti right to repair groups, but absolutely not the firearms manufacturers.

I wish I could believe that but many people are perfectly okay with curtailing certain parts of rights so long as they aren't parts of a right they personally use or value. Plenty of pro-2a people were fine with gun control when it was being used to suppress the Black Panthers. And also many times to "fight crime" with specific firearm features and configurations being illegal despite not making anybody safer.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#356

As an unabashed American, guns are amazing and an insanely important part of our national culture. Any attempt to diminish this is an attack on the culture of America. We are a nation of dangerous freedoms and matching individual responsibility. In order to maintain a functional country without ruining what makes America special, we need to simply actually enforce laws and I'll take apart in making our national cultu…

>We are a nation of dangerous freedoms

Sell some AI chips to a chinese company lmao. America wasn't even this back when everyone says America was this.

America is a bunch of slave and non slave states in a big trench coat, sharing the costs of bullying the rest of first the continent and then the rest of the planet.

Yeah some of you have guns big whoop.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#357
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, but at some point you're just banning "manufacturing". if someone wants to make a gun... they can. It's not complex to manufacturer simple firearms - we managed it as far back as the freaking 10th century. So why freak out over this, for example, and not CNCs? Or Power tools? Or forges (CHF barrels are a thing too!)?

Because those aren't as trendy right now. This is similar to banning nunchucks and throwing stars in the 80's (yes, that was a thing).

My state still has a ban on butterfly knives. As if doing some highly practiced hand flip move makes it more deadly than flipping out any other knife with a far more solid connection.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#358
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, my sympathies on your plight :( I don't know what I'd do in a similar situation. Again, I don't see how carrying a gun could improve the situation, except possibly that if everyone on the left was also carrying then the folks on the right might get scared and begin to think more rationally about gun control. Statistically, though, you're safer than they are. Guns are much more likely to kill their owners than an…

> Guns are much more likely to kill their owners than anyone else [0] That article says no such thing, despite people often claiming it does.

What do you think it says then?

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#359
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make bullets yourself just like you can make the gun. You may remember the assassination of Shinzo Abe. In the US low powerd black powder is super easy to get you don't even have to take fireworks apart or do home lab chemicals stuff.

But you need something better than a 3D printer for bullets. So if bullet sales are regulated, there is no need to regulate 3D printing.

Many people already load and reload their own bullets in the US because it is significantly cheaper. Good brass can be used many times over and loading equipment consists of an arbor press and some dies. Regulation would make getting it harder and more expensive, but all you would be doing is creating an ammunition black market that funds criminal enterprise with a supply still too large to do much in hampering gun crime.

Responsible gun owners and hunter who practice regularly would be harmed the most because they use tons of ammo. Criminals won't because they might only shoot a few bullets in their life and usually from close range.

Re: The dangers of California's legislation to censor 3D printing

#360

> The primary goal is clear and simple: to require 3D printer manufacturers to use a state-certified algorithm that checks digital design files for firearm components and blocks print jobs that would produce prohibited parts. "state-certified algorithm" has a really nice tyrannic ring to it. I am sure once this has passed the rich people can finally sleep at night knowing they are safe from roving gangs of armed Mang…

To be fair that's more or less how we prevent printers from printing counterfeit money.
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