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Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

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Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#351

Post by unsungNovelty »

tgv wrote: post #34
finghin wrote: post #4

> Prefer words to icons. Use only icons that are universally understood. Underrated. Except for dyslexic people, and the most obvious icon forms, I am pretty sure most people are just better and faster at recognising single words at a glance than icons.

I am pretty sure icons are easier and faster to recognize, except when you make them (too) small. In particular, they probably are easier in the long run, as long as they don't change position. But in a context where things change or you need a lot of buttons, words probably win.

This is not true. Just today for example, in android at least, I went to whatsapp, selected a chat with long tap, I want to archive the chat. I have a download like button. Apparently that is the archive button. I had no idea.

If it was the opening to the alternate dimension, I wouldn't still know. If it was something harmful like backup and delete, I wouldnt know. I just took the plunge and hoped it wasn't gonna be harmful. Luckily it was archive.

These kind of stupid things are there now in their calling screen and other places. Absolutely ridiculous and hard for me. Now imagine my parents who are 60+!!

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#352

Post by LaGrange »

donatj wrote: post #347

The examples chosen are particularly interesting to me. In particular Microsoft Word 2000 was panned at the time for not following native conventions. Its inputs, buttons, and File/Edit menus actually do not match the underlying OS. Do developers who came from Photoshop or Fireworks days actually like Figma? Maybe it's just down to how our designers are using it but I find pawing around a giant 2 dimensional document…

I mean, looking at it in 2026 Word 2000 looks _amazing_. How far my standards have fallen.

And yeah, I've met a lot of people who love Figma. I hate it so much, personally, getting around and finding what I need in it is so much pain.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#353

Post by unsungNovelty »

graemep wrote: post #329

This is a feature, not a bug. By making your software different you make it harder for people to switch.

You're confusing it with something else. You don't have to have the same things. But there are basic understanding for UI like how certain elements should work. People might tolerate cos its not on their hands. But the moment they can, they'll make sure to not use it.

This also means more support tickets and internal escalations. Just like how you should drive predictably on road to avoid maximum accidents, predictable UI's are important for maximum productivity. People will use it more. And when they move to another software and don't get the same, they will talk sh*t about it. They will tell people how a certain software is soooo good.

ClickUp for example is the most disastrous UI I've used in recent history. If you get angry while using software, you've done your job poorly. When someone discussed about ClickUp, I immediately shut it down. It's the same reason why people disliked Jira. AWS console Etc. They might tolerate for a while. But they will jump ship at the first opportunity. So can't figure out how it is a feature.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#354

Post by abustamam »

Stratoscope wrote: post #348
uhoh-itsmaciek wrote: post #58

In text boxes in some applications, enter submits the entered text, and ctrl-enter forces a newline (not at my computer, but I think Slack does this). In others, it's the other way around (pretty sure GitHub does this for comments). I don't know how we got here and I don't know how to fix it, but "bring back idiomatic design" doesn't help when we don't have enough idioms. I'm not even sure if those two behaviors are…

Enter-to-send is horrible. ChatGPT does it. Claude does it. Nextdoor does it. And none of those give you the courtesy of being able to turn it off. Slack does it, but if you dig through the settings you may find the way to switch it. How on earth did so many "designers" fixate on this idea that we must want to share our thought immediately instead of allowing a calmer interaction?

I can kinda understand why ChatGPT and other chat bots do it. It's a chat interface. Most people chat with single line prompts.

Next door and social media apps, to answer your question, I'm sure a PM somewhere was able to prove that engagement increased if we let people share their thoughts immediately, and the PM got a tidy bonus because of this.

I would be OK if they put a checkbox next to the text input that let me choose whether enter sends or line breaks. I would be OK even if that lived in session storage, to remove the friction of a new Db column. Just give us the option!

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#355

Post by abustamam »

rightofcourse wrote: post #71
uhoh-itsmaciek wrote: post #58

In text boxes in some applications, enter submits the entered text, and ctrl-enter forces a newline (not at my computer, but I think Slack does this). In others, it's the other way around (pretty sure GitHub does this for comments). I don't know how we got here and I don't know how to fix it, but "bring back idiomatic design" doesn't help when we don't have enough idioms. I'm not even sure if those two behaviors are…

For Slack at least you have the option to change that back to use Enter for new line (which is what I do), but other software is not that generous. I think Grafana introduced yet another way, Shift-Enter to submit, that I alway mix up.

Hot take — Shift enter to submit should be illegal everywhere. If there's any key chord to submit, it should be Ctrl Enter.

I think I'd be OK with some inconsistency in how Enter works as long as the key chords are consistent!

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#356

Post by abustamam »

suzzer99 wrote: post #180
bfbf wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s amazing how many blank stares I get when I, as mobile engineer, tell stakeholders that we shouldn’t just implement some random interface idea they thought up in the shower and we instead need design input! “But why can’t you just do it?” Because I recognise the importance of consistent UX and an IA that can actually be followed. Just like developers, (proper) designers solve problems, an we need to stop asking t…

An underrated senior engineer skill is saving stakeholders from their own worst impulses.

Agreed, but I think it's underrated because the trait could also get someone fired or laid off.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#357

Post by abustamam »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #99
jstanley wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a time and a place for it. If you already know exactly what the program needs to do, then sure, design a user interface. If you are still exploring the design space then it's better to try things out as quickly as possible even if the ui is rough.

There exist other ways to do the research. „Try things out“ is often not just a signal of „we don‘t know what to do“, but also a signal of „we have no idea how to properly measure the outcomes of things we try“.

I'm the lead for an internal tool for a non-technical team. We iterate so quickly that the team we're building it for was like "can you guys stop changing things so quickly? We can't keep up with where anything is." which was a fair assessment.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#358

Post by bluGill »

somat wrote: post #350
bluGill wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

player pianos existed with the concept of advancing are recorded messages. I forgot about them until you metioned them. The music box goes way back

Now I am searching to see if there were models of player pianos intended to punch tape. I have never really thought about it but a player piano sort of implies it can only play the roll. If pressed I would guess that player piano rolls were cut by hand. I mean, I am sure they had tools to help them and probably fully automatic duplication machines. but did anyone play the piano to get a piano roll? or was it more lik…

here were pianos that could punch a roll, but they were rare - AFAIK there were one offs that the company who made rolls used. The better rolls labels "as played by [someone famous in 1920]" were played on such a system. Once in a while those rolls were used directly in a performance, but the most common use was an expert would use that as the master and then correct all the errors because the transcription system wasn't very accurate (I'm not sure in what way, only that the companies always had an editor make adjustments before selling those roll)

Some of them are on exhibit in a museum - but with a sign saying something like "this will never be restored because it exposes the user to poisonous mercury." If you want to know more join the Musical Box society (I'm a member), or one of the other international clubs for people who collect this type of thing (I know of several but since I'm not a member I can't remember the full name)

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#359

Post by graemep »

unsungNovelty wrote: post #353
graemep wrote: post #329

This is a feature, not a bug. By making your software different you make it harder for people to switch.

You're confusing it with something else. You don't have to have the same things. But there are basic understanding for UI like how certain elements should work. People might tolerate cos its not on their hands. But the moment they can, they'll make sure to not use it. This also means more support tickets and internal escalations. Just like how you should drive predictably on road to avoid maximum accidents, predictab…

I am basing it on what I have heard normal users say. The easiest thing is what they are used to. People mostly use UIs that are not idiomatic. Websites vary wildly, lots of mobile apps do not stick to conventions, and even some desktops apps do not. For example, what else uses a ribbon menu like MS Office? Most people switch between desktop and mobile. Some people like an app to be consistent across platforms - which means breaking with platform conventions.

People do tolerate AWS Console though. Jira seems to be widely used.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#360

Post by wffurr »

trueno wrote: post #191
wffurr wrote: post #157

The number of JavaScript dropdown replacements that don't work correctly with the keyboard is stunning. It always amazes me how many forms fail at this basic usability aspect. The browser has homogeneous form controls built in, just use them!

i've seen this critiqued as ugly by people who didn't want to use daisyui's original dropdown which just deferred to the built in controls. now in daisyui's latest release there is an additional dropdown that you can style, because utility is a second rate citizen in design

Usable has to come first. That's what all these designer types are missing. It's user interaction design, not visual design. The interaction is key.
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