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France pulls last gold held in US

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Re: France pulls last gold held in US

#351

Post by kccqzy »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #350
kccqzy wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mild inflation is a good thing, at least according to modern economists. In a deflationary environment, money is worth more when you don’t spend them. And when people don’t spend them, there’s no economic growth. It’s just like having very high interest rates but the central bank cannot act to lower them.

This thread was someone saying you can't peg a currency to something else because "there isn't enough of it" which is nonsense. there’s no economic growth Printing money doesn't create economic growth, it just inflates assets and depresses nominal wages. money is worth more when you don’t spend them People say this stuff like it's gospel, but if someone understands currency dynamics in the first place they would have…

Economic growth comes from spending. Households must be incentivized to spend either through inflation or low interest rates.

Buying stocks hoping that it would appreciate doesn’t work when there is no economic growth. So we are back to square one.

And for hundreds of years we didn’t have the same kind of international trade, or the same financial markets. One must wonder whether a new kind of currency must accompany a new era of economy and trade.

Currency losing almost all its value is by design. Modern economists target a 2% inflation rate. This means currency is supposed to lose value. It’s another mechanism to encourage spending to increase economic growth.

Re: France pulls last gold held in US

#352

Post by dmoy »

atoav wrote: post #330
cyberax wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hyperinflation caused Hitler" is one of the common narratives that "everyone knows". But German economy was actually growing during the hyperinflation era and by the time of Hitler's ascension, the hyperinflation had long been in the past. I personally edited this very Wikipedia article several times, but my changes got reverted by goldbugs who want to memory-hole it. This article has a nice explanation: https://www…

I always thought it was the musical energy of Bertold Brechts "Die Dreigroschenoper" that lead Hitler to power. /s Just because two things are correlated in time, doesn't mean they are necessarily causally linked. Surely there are multiple factors at the same time behind the rise of a demagogue. In the case of Hitler the grievances of WWI played probably a much bigger role than economic problems.

Fair, but at the very least "hyperinflation caused Hitler" is a significantly weaker statement than "deflation caused Hitler", given that the former was replaced by the latter like 8+ years before Hitler's takeover.

Economic problems was a big part though, the 1929-33 great depression. It features heavily in political literature pushed by the Nazi party leading up to takeover. You know, like "Arbeit und Brot", etc.

Re: France pulls last gold held in US

#353

Post by cyberax »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #345
cyberax wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying you need inflation or you get hitler is pretty wild. Not really. You need inflation, or you end up with stagnation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%B6rgl#The_W%C3%B6rgl_Expe...

Your proof that the economic system that worked for hundreds of years doesn't actually work is a small town that issued their own currency, which allowed them to nominally pay people less and there were more jobs? That's what inflation does, everyone gets paid less, but they don't realize it because they just see the same number coming in and more going out. And then because of that, somehow noninflationary currency…

> Your proof that the economic system that worked for hundreds of years

It did not. The economic system that was in place for hundreds of years kept the population in a permanent state of depression. Most people had barely enough money to buy necessities.

The economic growth exploded, surpassing _millenia_ of innovation within mere _decades_ once we got rid of the golden chains.

But I guess that you fancy yourself being landed gentry and not a landless serf?

Re: France pulls last gold held in US

#354

Post by Obscurity4340 »

huhtenberg wrote: post #64
mort96 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make sense. If they first sold the bars held in the US, then the gold prices rose, then they bought gold in Europe, how the hell did that amount to a capital gain of $15b? How exactly do prices rising over the course of the process lead to these $15b?

Gold is down 10+% since its recent peak. They likely sold then and repurchased later.

Doesnt selling stuff publicly somehow reduce the price for basically all the rest?

Re: France pulls last gold held in US

#355

Post by CyberDildonics »

cyberax wrote: post #353
CyberDildonics wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your proof that the economic system that worked for hundreds of years doesn't actually work is a small town that issued their own currency, which allowed them to nominally pay people less and there were more jobs? That's what inflation does, everyone gets paid less, but they don't realize it because they just see the same number coming in and more going out. And then because of that, somehow noninflationary currency…

> Your proof that the economic system that worked for hundreds of years It did not. The economic system that was in place for hundreds of years kept the population in a permanent state of depression. Most people had barely enough money to buy necessities. The economic growth exploded, surpassing _millenia_ of innovation within mere _decades_ once we got rid of the golden chains. But I guess that you fancy yourself be…

kept the population in a permanent state of depression.

Says who?

people had barely enough money to buy necessities.

Where are you getting that? I think you're confusing and conflating all sorts of things like human advancements with inflationary money. I'm sure what you're saying makes sense if you think every invention, discovery and gain of knowledge was from people having their money inflated, but there isn't any evidence of this, it's just you restating it.

The economic growth exploded, surpassing _millenia_ of innovation within mere _decades_ once we got rid of the golden chains.

That really only happened in the 70s, it wasn't exactly the dark ages before that.

Re: France pulls last gold held in US

#356

Post by CyberDildonics »

kccqzy wrote: post #351
CyberDildonics wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread was someone saying you can't peg a currency to something else because "there isn't enough of it" which is nonsense. there’s no economic growth Printing money doesn't create economic growth, it just inflates assets and depresses nominal wages. money is worth more when you don’t spend them People say this stuff like it's gospel, but if someone understands currency dynamics in the first place they would have…

Economic growth comes from spending. Households must be incentivized to spend either through inflation or low interest rates. Buying stocks hoping that it would appreciate doesn’t work when there is no economic growth. So we are back to square one. And for hundreds of years we didn’t have the same kind of international trade, or the same financial markets. One must wonder whether a new kind of currency must accompany…

Economic growth comes from spending.

Who told you that?

Households must be incentivized to spend

Says who? What about governments and companies? People are already incentivized to spend because they need things.

Buying stocks hoping that it would appreciate doesn’t work when there is no economic growth.

You're contradicting yourself and going around in circles. If there is "economic growth" according to you, then stocks will go up, which means they end up being a deflationary currency, which means people will put there money there and not spend it.

They already go up due to inflation, people do buy stocks and other liquid assets, people still spend money anyway.

Also, gold still exists. By your own logic, because anyone can still buy gold or gold futures they should park their money there and never spend it.

Currency losing almost all its value is by design.

It is by design by governments and for governments. No person wants an inflationary currency, governments want it because they can they can borrow and print money they don't have and hand it out to people who in turn help with political power.

People don't want their currency to inflate away unless they own a business that can raise prices while their employees make less nominally.

Re: France pulls last gold held in US

#357

Post by SR2Z »

zahlman wrote: post #331
SR2Z wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hold on - you say "we find more gold every day" and then go on to suggest that the money supply doesn't actually need to keep up with economic growth? If we had the technology to maintain 0% inflation, we would do that. We can't, and rather than risk deflation we instead target low positive inflation. This is because deflation leads to nightmare spirals where people start stuffing money into their mattresses instead…

> If we had the technology to maintain 0% inflation, we would do that. We can't, and rather than risk deflation we instead target low positive inflation. I don't think this is quite right. My understanding is that a low positive inflation would be targeted anyway, because it stimulates the velocity of money; i.e. there's a downside to hoarding, since you need to beat inflation to come out on top. So people will be wi…

The main advantage to keeping inflation as low as possible but positive is also that it makes interest rates cheaper. Individuals are incentivized to spend when there's inflation, but banks have a harder time writing loans because the interest rate on the loan is the product of inflation and the bank's desired ROI.

Low interest rates are a good thing because they allow people to explore new ideas and new businesses - the entire modern tech industry would not exist without ZIRP because the scale of investments has only gone up as technology has advanced.

Re: France pulls last gold held in US

#358

Post by wolvoleo »

ezst wrote: post #297
wolvoleo wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh there's just some stupid 'rebranding' going on. https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-49921029 As I hate our government I don't play by their rules. Besides, Holland is shorter and easier to pronounce.

I obviously don't have a horse in this race, but this seems... more correct this way? And with Holland being a region (or two) and not the majority of the territory, how do the Dutch not living in Holland feel about it? It would seem like referring to Canada as "Québec", way to piss-off the non quebecers...

We don't really see it that way. I mean some people do, but not the overwhelming majority. For most Dutch people "Holland" is totally fine even if they're from Brabant or Limburg. In fact until recently the country 'marketed' itself as Holland internationally.

The Quebecians also inherited the chauvinism of the French (similar to the Wallonians in Belgium) so for them it's a huuuuge issue. But we don't really have that kind of nationalism.

Re: France pulls last gold held in US

#359

Post by cyberax »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #355
cyberax wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your proof that the economic system that worked for hundreds of years It did not. The economic system that was in place for hundreds of years kept the population in a permanent state of depression. Most people had barely enough money to buy necessities. The economic growth exploded, surpassing _millenia_ of innovation within mere _decades_ once we got rid of the golden chains. But I guess that you fancy yourself be…

kept the population in a permanent state of depression. Says who? people had barely enough money to buy necessities. Where are you getting that? I think you're confusing and conflating all sorts of things like human advancements with inflationary money. I'm sure what you're saying makes sense if you think every invention, discovery and gain of knowledge was from people having their money inflated, but there isn't any…

> Says who?

Err... Have you ever studied history?

> Where are you getting that?

From learning the basics of history? Before 1900-s famines were common, and most people were illiterate.

> That really only happened in the 70s, it wasn't exactly the dark ages before that.

Got it. You live in an imaginary world.

In reality, the first inflation happened when the European civilization established contact with South America. It rapidly expanded the monetary base and provided an impetus to economic development.

Then paper money (and equivalent debt-based mechanisms) were invented and became popular, and this turbocharged everything.

Re: France pulls last gold held in US

#360

Post by CyberDildonics »

cyberax wrote: post #359
CyberDildonics wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kept the population in a permanent state of depression. Says who? people had barely enough money to buy necessities. Where are you getting that? I think you're confusing and conflating all sorts of things like human advancements with inflationary money. I'm sure what you're saying makes sense if you think every invention, discovery and gain of knowledge was from people having their money inflated, but there isn't any…

> Says who? Err... Have you ever studied history? > Where are you getting that? From learning the basics of history? Before 1900-s famines were common, and most people were illiterate. > That really only happened in the 70s, it wasn't exactly the dark ages before that. Got it. You live in an imaginary world. In reality, the first inflation happened when the European civilization established contact with South America…

Err... Have you ever studied history?

I just explained history to you, you realize being patronizing and repeating yourself isn't evidence right?

From learning the basics of history? Before 1900-s famines were common, and most people were illiterate.

Do you think the printing press, the engine and large scale agriculture might have more to do with food and literacy than inflation?

All those problems were solved before the US went off the gold standard anyway.

In reality, the first inflation happened when the European civilization established contact with South America. It rapidly expanded the monetary base and provided an impetus to economic development.

You realize this doesn't make sense right? This idea that printing money somehow leads to all human advancement is bizarre, even for someone who is ignoring all the things I said before. If two cultures crossed oceans do you think the advancement might come from international trade or do you think some tribe in the jungle could make up a currency, start printing it off, then go straight on to skyscrapers and video games?

All this is just a gish gallop anyway, you never bothered to explain how not having inflation "causes hitler in 8 years" even though it's only been the last 50 years that we have been off of backed currency.

You also didn't confront the fact that anyone can put their money in stocks, bond or gold and essentially have a deflationary currency but they still spend money anyway.

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