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Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

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Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#351

Post by brookst »

graemep wrote: post #302
brookst wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if parents can rely on a a century of more of science showing the negative impacts of guns, tobacco, and alcohol on children… they can rely on vibes and politicians for evidence of harm from screens? I’m not even arguing with you. I’m just disappointed in how quickly so many on HN throw out all pretense of being interested in data as soon as a personal hot button issue comes up. It’s human nature I guess, but sti…

You need science to realise that guns are a danger to kids?

No, but I believe that science and quantifying the specific danger leads to better policies than going on vibes. For instance, laws to require safe storage are based on data quantifying reductions in harm to children [1]

Data beats vibes, even when vibes are qualitatively correct. I’m surprised this is surprising.

1. https://journalistsresource.org/health/child-access-preventi...

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#352

Post by brookst »

Eldt wrote: post #129
brookst wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I am making no such argument. I am saying that tech execs have no special knowledge, and their actions should not be used to inform one’s own opinions or social policy on the topic. There IS tons of data in this area. Please, do yourself a favor and read it (pay attention to the population of studies —- many use adults in their 30’s or older as proxies for children). You can absolutely find real data supporting y…

They quite literally have insider knowledge that others wouldn't

You think Jobs had insider data in the childhood development impact of iPads right when they were released?

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#353

Post by FarmerPotato »

zozbot234 wrote: post #169
bombcar wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair to the Forest, both of those did and do occur! But they were vastly overwhelmed by "entertainment" - similar to the printing press and other mass-media opportunities. The Internet allows you to get every classical work of philosophy or theology online immediately both in the original language or in translation. You can find videos discussion many of them in-depth. Someone in Nepal with an Internet connecti…

> The Internet allows you to get every classical work of philosophy or theology online immediately both in the original language or in translation. LLMs also do quite well at "decoding" the obscure language of these classic works and rephrasing it in more contemporary terms. Even a small local LLM will typically do a good enough job of this, though more world knowledge (with a bigger model) is always preferable.

No, they don't.

I'm close-reading Aristotle in a Meetup group where we compare many translations and indulge the controversies in translating the Greek.

When I've tried to get LLMs to bear on a topic, they can't even relate to the concept I'm looking at, instead generating a summary of the easiest parts. LLM is basically a beginner student.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#354

Post by brookst »

tgv wrote: post #158
brookst wrote: post #52

It’s sad to see HN take this at face value and parrot the “screens bad” view without understanding it. I dug deep into this a while ago, starting with the “how legit is the science” question because I wondered if the studies had looked at any tradeoffs (e.g. did laptop use improve programming skills in ways paper books do not?) It’s a rabbit hole. I encourage folks to read up and form more nuanced opinions. This bein…

Education research is really low quality. Like so many other fields in social sciences, the results rarely generalize beyond the direct findings, and only support the hypotheses in the mildest way. It cannot robustly guide decision making. The fact that studies on screens vs books cannot get a consistent answer says enough. I checked #3 of your links, and the amount of bullshit is astonishing. The cited articles offe…

Yep. Part of the reason is the ethical problems with experimenting on children.

And part of the problem is that there is a ton of money to be made in education, so there is a lot of incentive to create or cherry pick data promoting one’s preferred (most profitable) policies.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#355

Post by pmontra »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #233
raxxorraxor wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using tech also meant you got an iPad because otherwise teachers and IT would be overwhelmed. That the kids were already much more apt at using such devices was secondary. In the context of general education I can understand the strategy, it could be a useful learning environment, but certainly not if it is about digital education, tech knowledge or general engineering. Nobody becomes an engineer in a prison, you nee…

An iPad absolutely doesn't make kids "better at technology", if anything it makes them worse because it just wraps everything up in a braindead simple package for consumption. Ironically, Gen Z was supposed to lead the way as "digital natives", but in many ways they are (speaking broadly) much less technically adapt than, say, Gen Xers, because Gen Xers had to struggle to figure stuff out because it hadn't been all w…

20 year olds are bewildered when they see me opening a computer and replacing stuff instead of bringing it to a shop. "Where did you learn to do that?" It used to be the only way, everybody with a computer did it. The strange thing is that it's still possible but they don't think about it.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#356

Post by FarmerPotato »

compounding_it wrote: post #95
hananova wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but they are experts in engineering their garbage to cause maximum damage.

Engineering or marketing ? I doubt Zuckerberg or Altman have much involvement in engineering after their products took off. After a certain point they were no longer engineers of their products.

They absolutely decide whether to have people employed in moderation or safety. Or what gets done with what those teams learn.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#357

Post by FarmerPotato »

ceejayoz wrote: post #165
brookst wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Jobs, Zuckerberg, and Altman generally seen as experts in childhood development and education?

No, they employ those. In Zuck's case especially, in order to use what we know about childhood development and education to get kids addicted early.

There is the Stanford Persuasion Lab study on infinite scroll... rather than take it as a cautionary finding, tech has embraced the infinite scroll. Because incentives.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#358

Post by MisterTea »

kpw94 wrote: post #255
fasterik wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I realized using tech in education (pre university) was a mistake. I think we should use tech in education, but in a targeted way. It's important that children gain basic technical literacy, like how to touch type and use basic software. I suspect there is a gap in the technical literacy of lower income students, whose parents are less likely to have a computer at home. The real problem is separating reading/writing…

That's not using tech that you're describing here. You're talking about literally learning some basic computer skills (such as word processor, excel, reading email, some basic website building, use printer, and some amount of programming) For those, obviously you need a computer and completely agree that those are important skills to learn... But you maybe need to spend 1h/week during last 2 years of middle school on…

> (as it's been done since the 90s in many schools around the world)

I had computer lab in a catholic grade school in the mid-late 80's. Apple II's and the class was once a week and a mix of typing, logo turtle, and of course, The Oregon Trail.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#359

Post by nostrademons »

alecbz wrote: post #254
datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You typed out this message by hitting individual keys as your eyes searched for them? Isn’t that mentally exhausting?

> Although [touch typing] refers to typing without using the sense of sight to find the keys ... the term is often used to refer to a specific form of touch typing that involves placing the eight fingers in a horizontal row along the middle of the keyboard (the home row) and having them reach for specific other keys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_typing I think they're referring to the latter.

The strict definition of touch typing reminds me of how when I was a kid, my parents would always tell me that there’s a specific way of holding chopsticks. You gotta hold the top one like a pencil, and rest the bottom one between the crook of your fingers and your ring finger, and make sure they’re the same length and the bottom one isn’t moving and you’re just using it as a base to press against.

And then I became an adult and visited China and met actual Chinese immigrants and married a native chopstick holder. And half of them don’t hold chopsticks “the real way”. Somehow it all works out. As long as you can eat a peanut with them, you pass.

As an adult I learned that there’s also a whole lot of prescriptive bullshit that basically nobody pays attention to. The strict definition of touch typing seems like one of those. If you can type without looking at the keys, you can touch type.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#360

Post by red-iron-pine »

mentalgear wrote: post #167
TaupeRanger wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It tells us nothing. People act like this is some big hypocrisy or revelation. First of all, Jobs DID allow his children to use iPads, but it was limited. People take a single quote from the Isaacson biography out of context, assuming that he never let his children have access to iPads at all, forever. Other interviews he gave talked about limiting access - like ALL families should do. Jobs was literally just parenti…

If the fact that these CEOs responsible for propagating disruptive technologies - CEOs exposed to the effects every day, have unprecedented insights (internal analytics) and the best staff around them to assess the tech's potential positive and negative consequences - DO NOT want to their own to partake in it even though advertising it to anyone else, then - if that tells you nothing - you are just plain ignorant or…

a non-trivial number of HN is, in fact, literally (in)vested in their companies.

lotta folks here with FAANG pedigrees...

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