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Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

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351–360 of 432 posts

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#351
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the internet really needs to stfu about tesla and get over that oatmeal comic that spawned a billion internet myths. dude was a decent inventor but suffered from chronic mental health issues and, in his lifetime, wasted so much time/energy/money and burned so many bridges with his horrible attitude. there's a reason most people didnt like him in his day, he was a depressed asshole who alienated everyone around him, a…

Software engineers idolize Tesla because they see themselves as the Tesla (a selfless devotee of the abstract idea of technology) against evil Edisons (businessmen who only care about money and steal other people's ideas). They've basically projected the Jobs/Woz divide back onto two historical figures who, in reality, barely interacted. The funniest part is that The Oatmeal comic didn't invent this concept, but drew…

> And that organization is explicitly nationalistic and religious

So are many Serbs (more so if emigrants from atheist-socialist Yugoslavia, or descendants of folks who moved before WW2) as well as many other nations and organizations (America itself lol). So are many Something-Or-Other-American individuals and communities.

I presume that the organization(s) sending Tesla busts, being American-rooted, have had no illusions about which matters will forever remain impossible to communicate to Americans. (Such as anything not reducible to paperclip optimization.)

Instead, I consider it more likely that the point of promoting Tesla was not to impress anyone in America, but to uplift Serbia and generally the South Slavs of the Balkans who'd only gained national sovereignty in Tesla's day: "look, our heritage has already produced an honest-to-god American inventor half a jebani vek ago, so you guys have zero excuse to act as if you're stuck in the middle ages - do join the cargo cult of mordorn civilization instead, will ya - we got value to extract from ya!"

>They've basically projected the Jobs/Woz divide back onto two historical figures who, in reality, barely interacted.

I'd rather say this has been projected for them, but by whom is anyone's guess; not like there's a shadowy cabal operating. Besides said Serbian-American heritage promoters and whatever their game is, I guess - but here we're not talking mid-XX century Serbian diaspora any more, but a "culturally nonspecific" audience.

Much safer to call it "a hivemind situation" when nobody knows where some idea comes from, and nobody is accountable for rebroadcasting it either, since it comes pre-tagged as Good and True and Useful and it is wrongthink to doubt those. Especially when the idea is so obviously Useful for excusing nonaction. ("I can't be bothered to learn the first thing about electricity, even the history of why I have access to it in the first place - but now that Tesla guy I've vaguely heard of, he was the great genius of the people! What better reason to Experience a Positive Emotion!")

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the US voltage is safer (with the tradeoff of lower output powers available at your outlets). However, I suspect this is more than negated by the US plug design, which carries a much larger risk of shocks than almost all EU plug designs (Schuko, British/Type G, etc...) - uninsulated metal pins make contact with supply while partially exposed - much smaller distance between metal pins and the edge of the…

100% agree the US plug designs are terrible. But there's no inherent power tradeoff: you can have 240V outlets in the US, with the two prongs both 120V to ground. They're just really uncommon in residences.

Dryers and Stoves/range outlets are very common in US houses. Of course they are generally hidden behind the device and so most people are not sure if they have them at not. They are also reasonably common in garages (welders, air compressors, table saws... - if your hobby needs them you install them, otherwise you won't have them).

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#353

I've been hearing this line for over a decade, now. "Immersion cooling will make data centers scale!" "Converting to DC at the perimeter increases density!" Yes, of course both of those things are true, and yes, some data centers do engage in those processes for their unique advantages. The issue is that aside from specialty kit designed for that use (like the AWS Outposts with their DC conversion), the rank-and-file…

Immersion cooling was/is so fucking impractical it is only useful for very specific issues. If you talk to any engineer who worked on CRAY machines that were full of liquid freon, they'll tell how hard it is to do quick swaps of anything. Its much cheaper, quicker and easier to use cooling blocks with leak proof quick connectors to do liquid cooling. It means you can use normal equipment, and don't need to re-re-enfo…

We had a cluster of liquid cooled CDC Cyber mainframes. One of them developed a bad leak and managed to drain itself into the raised floor. This was a Very Bad Day for many folks in the computer center.

Edit: s/have/had/

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#354
post #342
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> maybe with a more robust connector than RJ45 USB-C could be that connector, using USB-PD instead of PoE. Though I'm not sure I'd want to need that much smarts for every single power outlet.

Considering the number of times I've sheared off a USB-C connector vs ethernet, I wouldn't consider USB-C to be more robust than RJ45. YMMV.

How often do you unplug RJ45s versus USB-C, though?

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#355
post #345

I set up my own home network with a Vertiv Liebert Li-ion UPS a few years ago and was thinking about how inefficient the whole process is regarding power. The current goes from AC to DC back to AC back to DC. Straight from the UPS as DC would work much better, and as I was teaching myself more about networking equipment, I was surprised to learn that most of it isn't DC input by default (i.e., each piece of equipment…

One of the main problems is conductor size. I wish we could access 22AWG copper in cheap and cheerful cat5e/cat6 format cable. 24AWG cat5e, sometimes CCA is not great for doing large amounts of POE.

22AWG Cat6A is actually what I used (cheap it was not however).

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#357

I set up my own home network with a Vertiv Liebert Li-ion UPS a few years ago and was thinking about how inefficient the whole process is regarding power. The current goes from AC to DC back to AC back to DC. Straight from the UPS as DC would work much better, and as I was teaching myself more about networking equipment, I was surprised to learn that most of it isn't DC input by default (i.e., each piece of equipment…

I think we're slowly, slowly coming around to the idea of domestic DC distribution. The vast majority of consumer electronics would be perfectly happy to consume 12v. It's cheaper, safer, more efficient. Less design work and certification on inbuilt AC adapters. I think it's highly unlikely we'll see mass scale retrofits, but if enough momentum builds up, I can see it as a great bonus feature for new builds. I got lu…

48v is what most home battery/solar systems run off. Also coincidentally POE, IMO it makes a much more sensible candidate as it is still 'safe' while carrying 4x as much power for a given cable gauge. Consider laptops are 19 or 20v so you would essentially /need/ a minimum of 24v.

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#358
post #354
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the number of times I've sheared off a USB-C connector vs ethernet, I wouldn't consider USB-C to be more robust than RJ45. YMMV.

How often do you unplug RJ45s versus USB-C, though?

I'm not talking about unplugging. Normal use.

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#359

I set up my own home network with a Vertiv Liebert Li-ion UPS a few years ago and was thinking about how inefficient the whole process is regarding power. The current goes from AC to DC back to AC back to DC. Straight from the UPS as DC would work much better, and as I was teaching myself more about networking equipment, I was surprised to learn that most of it isn't DC input by default (i.e., each piece of equipment…

It's fun to think about. There's advantages both ways, but I think it leans most-heavily towards keeping AC.

1. One of these is simplicity. With AC, one single home run of cabling (eg, Romex) can feed a whole room full of stuff, like a bedroom or a living room. At one end of the run is a circuit breaker (a fairly simple electromechanical device) and at the other end is a series of outlets (which are physically daisy-chained, but are functionally just wired in parallel with eachother).

Since one single run of cable can feed many devices, it is easy to accomplish.

2. Another advantage is that it is universal. Anything can plug into these outlets. Whatever a person brings into the home to use, they can plug it into an outlet and it works. It works this same way in every home.

3. And there's quite a lot of power available: A common 20A 120v branch circuit cabled up with 12AWG Romex is stated to supply up to 16A continuously, or 1920W. For intermittent loads, it can supply 20A -- or 2400W. That's tiny by European standards, but it's still quite a lot of power. It's plenty to run a space heater when Grandma visits and she complains about the guest room being cold (even as you start to sweat when you cross the threshold to investigate) and a big TV and a whole world of table lamps, all at once. And you can plug this stuff into any outlets in a room, and it Just Works.

4. But, sure: Lots of devices want DC, not AC. So there's a necessary conversion step that is either integral to the device being plugged in, or in the form of the external wall warts we all know very well.

So let's compare to power-over-ethernet.

1. It's also simple, but only tangentially-so. One home-run cable per outlet, whether that outlet is used or not, is something that can be rationalized as being a simple topology. A PoE switch at the head-end instead of a central box with circuit breakers is a simple-enough thing to transition to. And a lot more individual cables are required, but they're relatively small and are generally easier to install.

2. It's standardized, but it's not universal at all. I've got a few PoE widgets around the house, but I'm pretty friggin' weird when it comes to what I do with electricity. I can't go to Wal-Mart and buy more PoE widgets to use at home, and when people visit they aren't bringing PoE adapters to charge their phones and other electronics. My computer monitor doesn't have a PoE input. I can easily imagine a table lamp or a fan that connects to PoE, and also uses it as a network connection for automation, and that sounds pretty sweet in ways that tickle my automation bones in the most filthy of fashions... but that's getting even further into the weeds compared to how regular people expect to do regular things.

3. There isn't a lot of power available. 802.3bt Type 4 is the highest spec. And within that spec: While switch ports can output up to 100W, a device being powered is limited drawing no more than 71.3W. Now, sure, that's 71.3W per port, but in a room with 10 ports that's still only ~700W -- at most -- in that room. And Grandma's space heater won't run on 71.3W, nor her electric blanket. My laptop wants more than this. The list of useful, portable things that we casually plug into a wall that only draw less than 71.3W is pretty short and most don't benefit from the main advantage of PoE, which is a combination of [some] power alongside high-speed Ethernet data.

4. We still need wall warts since PoE is nominally ~48VDC. For example: Phones use less than 71.3W while charging, but they don't run on 48V. That means 120V AC comes in from the grid, gets shifted to 48VDC for distribution within the dwelling, and then gets shifted yet again to the produce the power (5, 9, 15, and 20V are common-enough in USB PD world) that devices actually want. That's more lossy conversion steps, not fewer -- and we still get to keep the extra conversion (wall warts) as punishment for our great ideas. This is not the path towards increased energy efficiency.

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PoE is great for the things we use it for today. A camera, a wireless access point -- you know, fixed-location stuff that uses networked data as its primary function and also requires power.

Installed PoE light fixtures (like, say, task lights in a kitchen) also sounds neat -- unless they die prematurely and no PoE replacements are to be found. (Now, you have not just one or two problems, but many: The lights aren't working in that space and they can't be replaced with a trip to Lowes because the Romex that would normally have been installed was deliberately deleted from the plan. It could have been a 20-minute DIY fix that costs less than $100, but now it involves drywall and paint and retrofitting new cabling. Or maybe PoE replacements do exist, but it's now 2035 and the new ones don't talk the same network protocols as the old ones did.)

But there are other upsides: I've got an 8-port PoE-powered network switch that works a treat. It's a dandy little thing. And it sure would be neat to plug my streaming box in with PoE and kill two birds with one cable; I would like that very much.

But most people? Most people don't give a damn about ethernet (PoE, or not!) these days, or streaming boxes, and that trend is increasing. They just plug their lamp into the regular outlet on the wall like they always have, and deal with whatever terrible UI is built into their smart TV, and use wifi for anything that needs data.

And when they buy a home that is filled with someone else's smart infrastucture, their first task (more often than not) is to figure out who to call to erase those parts completely and put it back to being normal and boring.

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#360

800V to each rackmount unit, with hot plugging of rack units? That's scary. The usual setup at this voltage is that you throw a hulking big switch to cut the power, and that mechanically unlocks the cabinet. But that's not what these people have in mind. They want hot-plugging of individual rackmount units. GE has a paper about the power conversion design, but it doesn't mention the unit to rack electrical and mechan…

The power connectors will be on the far side of the rack from the service side so shouldn’t be a problem for humans touching the third rail so to speak. With that sort of voltage you should be able to use a capacitive or inductive sensor to activate a relay.

With a power rail that could supply kiloamps of fault current, thus megajoules of energy into an arc, I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Copper vapor inhalation is a definite possibility and a horrible way to die.

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