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Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#351

Post by tracker1 »

direwolf20 wrote: post #250
lenerdenator wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately, whether or not people are able to do anything involves consequences for their actions. There's the "three" boxes of liberty that are meant to give a framework for how humans in a society are to introduce consequences to state actors who abuse rights: the soap box, the ballot box, and the jury box. So we need to start using at least those three to prevent human rights abuses with regard to search warrants.

I take it you didn't include the fourth box because you didn't want to be flagged?

+1 here... I think a lot of people underestimate the value of the 2nd amendment in recent times.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#352

Post by tracker1 »

SanjayMehta wrote: post #285
moate wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is absolutely the system working as intended: The State exists to protect large monied interests and their power, and those entities in exchange will sell out individuals to the State that seek to undermine their power. The State will never not do this. Like, I realize I'm the rambling anarchist up in here, but show me ANY government ever that didn't Murder and Pillage, two things that we all hate when perpe…

> The State exists to protect large monied interests and their power, and those entities in exchange will sell out individuals to the State that seek to undermine their power. The State will never not do this. Reminds me of a certain ideology, can't quite put my finger on it. I think it starts with F

I find it funny how many people think that Capitalism and Fascism are compatible or the same... completely disregarding the fact that Fascism is a form of Socialism borne out of the limitations of Communism.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#353

Post by ModernMech »

mulmen wrote: post #287
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My interpretation of ModernMech's comment is that acceptance is a pre-requisite of changing it. ie. if you didn't accept it, then you wouldn't feel the need to change it.

I agree that is the most favorable interpretation.

That's how I meant it but now actually I don't agree with the usage of "accept", because acceptance implies consent. So I would change the word to "acknowledge".

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#354

Post by mindslight »

themaninthedark wrote: post #291
mindslight wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are you saying "full stop" to? You have said very little that addresses anything I said, except to appeal to some vague sense of "both sidesism" which is so far away from our current predicament that the only applications I see are (1) to say "I told you so", which isn't productive and widely misses the mark with me (2) normalize the current situation and/or absolve blame by shifting it onto the other si…

I am saying "No. Full stop." to the idea that we ever had a time when the government was attempting to carry out their roles in good faith. "For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law" - Óscar Benavides, former president of Peru. This can only be true if the law is broad and relies on "good faith". This is why laws and court ruling are often narrowly tailored, to prevent a precedent being set that will open…

> I am saying "No. Full stop." to the idea that we ever had a time when the government was attempting to carry out their roles in good faith.

This is such a strong claim, I don't know how it could even be supported.

At the agency level (the context of my original comment), this is effectively an assertion that the FDA has never meaningfully cared about food safety, NPS has always had some hidden motive for hosting visitors in parks, and so on. I'm nowhere near the best person to wax eloquently about the value of government, and I'm probably coming from a much closer position to you of being skeptical, but I think we have to admit there is some value here.

At the level of individual government agents, it's even less supportable. For example, most ICE agents are not boxing in vehicles to create an excuse to execute their drivers who had been protesting. Most ICE agents are just trying to perform their stated purpose of enforcing immigration law. This is NOT a defense of the agency, their leadership, the part of their stated goal that I have to begrudgingly admit is lawful, the tendency for agents to close ranks and defend the worst agents, the totalitarian propaganda holding it all together, etc. Rather it's an acknowledgement of the actual reality. (that we have to work with if we're going to attempt to reform it, and I use the term "reform" loosely here. I think the moderate option at this point is "abolish ICE")

The point is that in all of these situations, there is authority being delegated to individual humans, who are then supposed to faithfully carry it out. This is why we have oaths of office, and whatnot. You seem to be rejecting this very idea of how any human structure necessarily functions, in favor of some idea that laws can be objectively defined and mechanically executed?

> I wish we could get the government to hold themselves accountable, however they would need to pass a law to override the concept and they do not seem to be in any hurry to do so.

but then:

> invite not only you but everyone to stand against bad laws and practices

What do you mean by "stand against" if not ultimately pushing for reform, likely culminating in demanding some kind of government-inconvenient legislation that curtails abuses?

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#355

Post by slg »

philipallstar wrote: post #334
slg wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first lady originally came to the US on a tourist visa before getting work as a model and eventually applying for a green card several years later. Musk came to the US on a student visa for a program that he never actually enrolled in. Even if you want to argue its "race-neutral", it's certainly not "proximity to the president neutral" so it still is very much "Gestapo-like behavior".

This constant dilution of how bad the Gestapo were is appalling.

Some people have this weird view of history in which everything is judged by the end state. They believe we can’t compare a situation to something like Nazi Germany if it is not identical to the final stages of that fascist regime. The problem with that thinking is it ignores how these regimes got to that point. Not only do they constantly escalate their atrocities growing worse over time, but many of those atrocities simply weren’t and won’t be known until the regime is deposed meaning the in the moment understandings of their evilness is incomplete.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#356

Post by mindslight »

chaps wrote: post #350
mindslight wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can be pragmatic in recognizing that "our guys" also did bad things What do you mean "our guys" ? I don't have guys. I consider myself a libertarian, was both sidesing up until June of 2020, and had never voted for a major party in a national election until 2020 when I voted for Biden - which I view as me getting older and more conservative - aka valuing our societal institutions and values after seeing how much…

> I still think it is foolish to write off the current administration as if it's just another iteration of back and forth corruption You are deeply, deeply misunderstanding my point if this is what you got from my post. "Our guys" was tongue in cheek.

Care to elaborate on your point then? Reading what you have written, I do agree with the abstract thrust of where you're coming from.

But I have also observed that the destructionists appeal to similar lofty ideas to justify what is currently going on - eg accelerationism.

(I also don't know what difference "tongue in cheek" makes. I've never looked at the government and thought anything like "these people represent me and work for my interest". I know a lot of people seemingly have, but that's not me. But I did look at the Biden administration, which I voted for, and think "this is the stable predictable evil I (and the rest of American society) already know how to cope with".)

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#357

Post by fc417fc802 »

deaux wrote: post #337
Retric wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s definitely been variability in how far government agencies have been pushing under this administration. It’s going to get interesting if the next Democrat in the white house takes similar steps based on current precedent. That would hopefully result in long term reforms, but we might just be heading to civil war regardless.

> The problem I was listening to a historian discuss the other day is that we're stuck in a cycle of: > 1. Republican breaks norms/laws > 2. Democrat cleans up after, but by not breaking norms, doesn't go far enough to actually undo all the damage > 3. We end up with a more broken governmental configuration, and head back to (1) > They said this pattern goes back to Nixon. This is set to continue, else they wouldn't…

Suggesting that republicans break, democrats overlook is biased and inaccurate. Obama attempted and got away with plenty of "creative" interpretations of the law. There's a clear partisan tendency to overlook oversteps that are in the favor of one's "team". Party politics is a disease.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#358

Post by nobody9999 »

loeg wrote: post #347
nobody9999 wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We don't know this is mistreatment. It's not wrong for the government to subpoena data to investigate a crime. To which specific "crime" are you referring? From TFA[0]: Amandla Thomas-Johnson had attended a protest targeting companies that supplied weapons to Israel at a Cornell University job fair in 2024 for all of five minutes, but the action got him banned from campus. I didn't realize that attending a protest w…

I'm not familiar with the full details of the investigation.

Yep. Ignorance is bliss, ain't it?

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#359

Post by reliabilityguy »

abustamam wrote: post #330
reliabilityguy wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should do some actually police work. This kind of "Papers, please" approach to immigration enforcement is dystopian. Why it’s dystopian? It’s literally how it’s done in other places as well. I agree that the government has to go through and punish those who employ illegal immigrants too to disincentivize unauthorized employment, but it doesn’t have to be only one avenue. > Why isn't the FBI or local police? I…

I think a couple of these points are getting mixed together. On the “crimes aren’t prosecuted” issue: that’s a broader criminal justice question, not really an immigration one. Whether someone is a citizen, documented immigrant, or undocumented immigrant, the question of prosecution policy is the same. If people think prosecutors are being too lenient, that’s something to take up locally through elections, town halls…

> Immigration status doesn’t really change that dynamic.

Yes and no. It raises the question of how this specific crime could have been prevented. And it is very hard to argue against that with proper border enforcement, there is a good chance that some crime would have never happened.

The issue of social justice driven prosecution, while not related to the act of entering without inspection, just amplifies all these cases, and mixes the problem of lack of immigration enforcement with poorly thought out policies about prosecution and punishment.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#360

Post by fsflover »

crazygringo wrote: post #345
fsflover wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think smaller companies are any more likely to resist? If anything, they have even less resources to go to court Somehow smaller companies do resiste much more. Examples: Lavabit refused to expose Snowden, Purism offers SIM-cards protecting you from tracking ("AweSIM").

No, some smaller companies do. Plenty don't at all. Apple is a gigantic company and known for being super privacy focused, keeping your information encrypted to protect it from governments wherever they can. So what makes you think size has any relevance here?

> Apple is a gigantic company and known for being super privacy focused, keeping your information encrypted to protect it from governments wherever they can.

I wouldn't trust this marketing. Companies are on the users' side when the competition is strong. Apple is practically a monopoly. See my other comment with examples how it doesn't care about users.

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