Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support • Hacker News Board

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#351

Post by BadBadJellyBean » Tue, Feb 03, 2026, 7:50 PM UTC

JCattheATM wrote: post #348

BadBadJellyBean wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not cognitive dissonance to learn from others. The pluggable nature of Linux makes developer lifes harder. They have to write wrappers and abstractions to use base functionality. Having a unified api surface is very attractive. Windows did something right because you can run very old binaries on a new system. Good luck doing that on Linux. In the end for most people Linux is not an intellectual exercise in free…

> It is not cognitive dissonance to learn from others. I didn't say it was. I said it was to attack one binary blob abstraction while embracing another. > Windows did something right because you can run very old binaries on a new system. Good luck doing that on Linux. I agree, but that's entirely irrelevant. > systemd ... works and brings a benefit it might be a good thing to start to depend on it. We have very diffe…

> I said it was to attack one binary blob abstraction while embracing another.

You didn't say that but even if you meant that systemd is an open source project and it has multiple components. It is not just a binary blob. It is a coherent framework for basic system services. It is pick and choose for the most part. Most distro choose to use all of it.

I still disagree that liking systemd and disliking windows is incompatible. Windows is a closed source project, developed without much external input that has a clear monetary incentives that are often user hostile. The way it's system api works is rarely the reason for criticizing it.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#352

Post by JCattheATM » Tue, Feb 03, 2026, 8:16 PM UTC

BadBadJellyBean wrote: post #351

JCattheATM wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not cognitive dissonance to learn from others. I didn't say it was. I said it was to attack one binary blob abstraction while embracing another. > Windows did something right because you can run very old binaries on a new system. Good luck doing that on Linux. I agree, but that's entirely irrelevant. > systemd ... works and brings a benefit it might be a good thing to start to depend on it. We have very diffe…

> I said it was to attack one binary blob abstraction while embracing another. You didn't say that but even if you meant that systemd is an open source project and it has multiple components. It is not just a binary blob. It is a coherent framework for basic system services. It is pick and choose for the most part. Most distro choose to use all of it. I still disagree that liking systemd and disliking windows is inco…

> You didn't say that

I didn't spell it out but it was the clear point I was making.

> systemd is an open source project and it has multiple components. It is not just a binary blob.

Missing the forest for the trees. It being open source is irrelivant here.

> I still disagree that liking systemd and disliking windows is incompatible.

I never said it was.

> The way it's system api works is rarely the reason for criticizing it.

I never said it was. You seem to be having an entirely different discussion.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#353

Post by BadBadJellyBean » Tue, Feb 03, 2026, 8:30 PM UTC

its_magic wrote: post #344

BadBadJellyBean wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you got it backwards. Systemd is a standardization that is appealing to developers. They want to adopt it because it makes their life easier. It is just nice to know that all the tools you need for a system are there and work together. Pluggability is hard to maintain and is only done if there is no standardization. I somehow don't think your gripe is with systemd but with developers who prefer the easy route…

> Systemd is a standardization that is appealing to developers. They want to adopt it because it makes their life easier. It is just nice to know that all the tools you need for a system are there and work together. Pluggability is hard to maintain and is only done if there is no standardization. That's the official story, but like most official stories, it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. I built an entire system…

I am honestly happy for you that you made your system the way you want it. That is a good thing and please keep doing what you are doing.

This is not relevant to the average user. The average PC user doesn't use Linux and the average Linux user uses an off the shelve distro. For these distros it is very attractive to have a bunch of core services ready that work together because they are released as one. It can be done but why the hassle? What is the upside for the maintainer apart from maybe the moral high ground?

Software projects can also benefit from standardization. They can concentrate on writing functionality instead of maintaining abstraction layers. And I believe the more mainstream distros choose the SystemD stack the more it becomes the default or at least the initial implementation for their software.

We also have to keep in mind that this kind of standardization is nothing new. Pretty much every distro depends on the GNU coreutils. Maybe not on the binaries themselves but at least on their API. That is not very different from SystemD. We have a POSIX standard.

Final word regarding sysvinit: I worked with sysvinit, upstart and systemd and having an opinionated config format for services is so much better, in my opinion. Not having to read a whole shell script to know how a service works is such an improvement and the easy overrides for units (for example distro packaged ones) is amazing.

Note: In my post I counted distro maintainers as developers.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#354

Post by BadBadJellyBean » Tue, Feb 03, 2026, 8:34 PM UTC

JCattheATM wrote: post #352

BadBadJellyBean wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I said it was to attack one binary blob abstraction while embracing another. You didn't say that but even if you meant that systemd is an open source project and it has multiple components. It is not just a binary blob. It is a coherent framework for basic system services. It is pick and choose for the most part. Most distro choose to use all of it. I still disagree that liking systemd and disliking windows is inco…

> You didn't say that I didn't spell it out but it was the clear point I was making. > systemd is an open source project and it has multiple components. It is not just a binary blob. Missing the forest for the trees. It being open source is irrelivant here. > I still disagree that liking systemd and disliking windows is incompatible. I never said it was. > The way it's system api works is rarely the reason for critic…

If that is not what you are arguing than I honestly have no idea what your point is.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#355

Post by krautburglar » Tue, Feb 03, 2026, 8:47 PM UTC

prathamtharwani wrote: post #297

krautburglar wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that book is a waste. It is just MIT dunning-krugerites who were salty that LISP machines never took off. When it comes to real life, the bell labs approach won, and for several good reasons. Not "worse is better" (another dunning-krugerite cope), but "less is more."

But your comment is a waste. It is just HN dunning-krugerites who were salty that the UNIX way never took off. When it comes to real life, the Poettering approach won, and for several good reasons.

The UNIX way is still doing fine on OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD, Alpine, Gentoo... Poetteringware only won on the distros selling support contracts. "Fixing" what wasn't broken is great for those businesses.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#356

Post by fsflover » Tue, Feb 03, 2026, 8:47 PM UTC

prathamtharwani wrote: post #297

krautburglar wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that book is a waste. It is just MIT dunning-krugerites who were salty that LISP machines never took off. When it comes to real life, the bell labs approach won, and for several good reasons. Not "worse is better" (another dunning-krugerite cope), but "less is more."

But your comment is a waste. It is just HN dunning-krugerites who were salty that the UNIX way never took off. When it comes to real life, the Poettering approach won, and for several good reasons.

> for several good reasons

Such as money from M$?

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#357

Post by its_magic » Tue, Feb 03, 2026, 8:49 PM UTC

theamk wrote: post #347

its_magic wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the word "sysvinit" here is it's sort of a red herring. BSD init is better, in my opinion. I don't like managing all those symlinks. Plus, sysvinit is an old 90s application and its code does have some cruft built up over the years that could be removed and simplified. I'm devising a new init for my system that's much simpler than sysvinit and much closer to BSD.

"BSD init", "much simpler"... So does this mean you still expect applications to manage their own logs, daemonization and security setup themselves? If yes, that's yet another init system not made for application writers.

Manage their own logs, daemonization, and security? The humanity! How will they ever manage all of that?

Come on man. It's been done for decades.

It doesn't take a giant bloated infrastructure to manage most people's needs, which are quite basic in most cases.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#358

Post by its_magic » Tue, Feb 03, 2026, 8:52 PM UTC

BadBadJellyBean wrote: post #353

its_magic wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Systemd is a standardization that is appealing to developers. They want to adopt it because it makes their life easier. It is just nice to know that all the tools you need for a system are there and work together. Pluggability is hard to maintain and is only done if there is no standardization. That's the official story, but like most official stories, it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. I built an entire system…

I am honestly happy for you that you made your system the way you want it. That is a good thing and please keep doing what you are doing. This is not relevant to the average user. The average PC user doesn't use Linux and the average Linux user uses an off the shelve distro. For these distros it is very attractive to have a bunch of core services ready that work together because they are released as one. It can be do…

You lost me when you started talking about the average user. I don't care about that guy or his desires. At all.

I miss the days when computing was about the above average guy--not the simpleton who needs his hand held, so everything has to be dumbed down to the lowest level to suit him.

Heard it all before, and I'm not interested in anything systemd has to "offer." Especially all the bugs and security issues.

This distro isn't for you. That's OK. systemd, and wayland, etc that some are so excited about isn't for me or a number of others, and it will never be. We are going our separate way. Just look at all the comments below. Lots of upvotes too.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#359

Post by RTX713 » Tue, Feb 03, 2026, 8:53 PM UTC

ChocolateGod wrote: post #299

nine_k wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Runit is 5474 SLOCs. Most source files are shorter than 100 lines. Works like a charm. Implements an init system; does not replace DNS, syslog, inetd, or anything else. Systemd, by construction, is a set of Unix-replacing daemons. An ideal embedded system setup is kernel, systemd, and the containers it runs (even without podman). This makes sense, especially given the Red Hat's line of business, but it has little rel…

> Implements an init system; does not replace DNS, syslog, inetd, or anything else. You're confusing systemd the init manager and systemd the project. systemd as an init system only "replaces" initd, syslog and udev. All other components under the systemd project are optional and not required, nor is there any push to make them required.

>"All other components under the systemd project are optional and not required"

Name two major distros that use 'systemd init system' but doesn't use the other parts.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#360

Post by JCattheATM » Tue, Feb 03, 2026, 8:53 PM UTC

BadBadJellyBean wrote: post #354

JCattheATM wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You didn't say that I didn't spell it out but it was the clear point I was making. > systemd is an open source project and it has multiple components. It is not just a binary blob. Missing the forest for the trees. It being open source is irrelivant here. > I still disagree that liking systemd and disliking windows is incompatible. I never said it was. > The way it's system api works is rarely the reason for critic…

If that is not what you are arguing than I honestly have no idea what your point is.

And I'm fine with that. Let's just leave it here. Cheers.