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Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

arstechnica.com

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Re: Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

#351

Post by scruple »

lbreakjai wrote: post #338
seec wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. Even cruise control is kind of useless because people in front of you don't necessarily use it and are very inconsistent in their speed. So you end up constantly having to engage/disengage, rendering the whole thing moot. I think something like autopilot could be implemented at the infrastructure level (sensors and emitters along the road), but people wouldn't like that because it would mean being unable to set…

To your first point, that's what adaptive cruise control does. It will slow you down to maintain a gap with the car in front of you.

ACC generally has a 3-4 second time interval that it permits between you and the car in front of you. I live in SoCal, so a lot of my driving is on very aggressive routes. The 4-second gap is mechanically safe but it's practically unusable because it creates a void large enough to invite other cars to lane change in front of me. So when that car merges in, the ACC detects a violation of the safe braking distance and decelerates to reestablish the gap. I call it the "cut me off" loop when we're on trips.

And before anyone suggests that I start tinkering around with the settings, I have adjusted it and the damned thing just resets itself constantly.

Re: Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

#352

Post by Eggpants »

ajross wrote: post #299
nradov wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a joke? Tesla's consumer vehicle autonomy features are ahead in some ways but way behind GM and Mercedes-Benz in others. In particular the Mercedes Drive Pilot system is true SAE level 3 where the manufacturer assumes legal liability for vehicle operation. Tesla has nothing like that available to consumers.

Drive Pilot cannot perform a single one of the maneuvers I listed above. It's just a stunt. They took a machete to the feature set to find Just One Thing that would meet the requirements. All it does is use radar to follow another car on a selection of fixed, geofenced limited access highways. It can't handle the leader changing lanes, or going too fast (won't even get to the speed limit). It won't navigate, it won't…

And yet Tesla won’t take responsibility for FSD mistakes. I had one and it’s amazing when it works but it did try to kill me a number of times.

Re: Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

#353

Post by ajross »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #328
Mawr wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and frankly at parity with Waymo in the autonomy space. Waymos have been driving around autonomously for years; meanwhile Tesla taxis have a human in the car ready to activate a kill switch at all times. Therefore, your statement is objectively false. EDIT: Oops, this isn't quite correct anymore — as of two days ago, in a geofenced area of Austin, Tesla has moved the safety person to a follower car: https://xcancel…

It's a stunt. If they believed it worked, they wouldn't need somebody dedicated to monitoring it for the entire time it's on the road. Having nobody in the car looks cool, but there is nothing different about the car's self driving capability, and the economics are even worse than having the safety driver in the car.

It's no different on a technical level than Waymo using remote operators. Presumably Tesla just hasn't wired that up, or doesn't plan to.

FWIW, your logic works better the other way around anyway: if the system didn't work, there would be easily-accessible proof to that effect showing the resulting hilarity as the operator needed to step in. There isn't.

And... of course there isn't. Because FSD is real and works and it drives a ton of us around every day. Is it possible that there are failure modes? Of course. Thus the safety personnel. But the bar of "if they believed it worked" was crossed years ago. Yes, it works. Duh. Go to a dealer and get a test drive if you don't believe people on the internet.

Re: Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

#354

Post by eudamoniac »

rcxdude wrote: post #339
rich_sasha wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the alternative? I'm not advocating causing shoplifters to crash, but I do like the idea that the police pursue criminals. You can imagine some kind of built in remote kill switch, but I can't see that being advocated here.

You attempt to ID them and pick them up later, and if you can't, you let them go.

Well, I'd rather they just get pitted. If someone is at the point of fleeing from police in a high speed chase, I want them removed from society, because nobody well adjusted and beneficial does that. Whether that's by arrest or by accidental death, I really don't mind either way. The alternative also emboldens criminals to flee as a first resort and to plan around that possibility.

Fortunately in USA we have many state jurisdictions to choose from so we can each live under the sort of laws that suit us best!

Re: Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

#355

Post by tzs »

siliconc0w wrote: post #16

Article is unclear but if this is saying you can't even get basic ADAS w/out $99/mo that is a pretty big deal, especially if it's applied to existing cars. Basic stay-in-line and start/stop following in traffic has become pretty standard for almost a decade at this point and paywalling it now would be outrageous. I have a 2017 car that does this.

According to other articles adaptive cruise control (which works down to 0 mph in stop and go traffic) is being kept standard. It is just the rest of Autopilot that is moving to a subscription.

Re: Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

#356

Post by array_key_first »

ajross wrote: post #353
lern_too_spel wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a stunt. If they believed it worked, they wouldn't need somebody dedicated to monitoring it for the entire time it's on the road. Having nobody in the car looks cool, but there is nothing different about the car's self driving capability, and the economics are even worse than having the safety driver in the car.

It's no different on a technical level than Waymo using remote operators. Presumably Tesla just hasn't wired that up, or doesn't plan to. FWIW, your logic works better the other way around anyway: if the system didn't work, there would be easily-accessible proof to that effect showing the resulting hilarity as the operator needed to step in. There isn't. And... of course there isn't. Because FSD is real and works and…

No it's entirely different on a technical level, because waymos always drive themselves. The human operators don't drive, and in fact can't, they can only make decisions that the car then executes.

Waymos are autonomous vehicles, Tesla has some vehicles which may operate autonomously in certain circumstances. There's a big difference.

Re: Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

#357

Post by 93po »

Mawr wrote: post #290
drak0n1c wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are unsupervised HW4 Tesla robotaxis in Austin open to public use as of yesterday. Lemonade Insurance announced an FSD plan where the price is half the market rate while using FSD. So unless there are specific regulatory barriers for personal vehicles unsupervised should be available for their latest gen personal cars sometime this year.

Oh, but you see, when Mr. Musk said: 'In a post on X.com, Musk said Tesla "started Tesla Robotaxi drives in Austin with no safety monitor in the car. Congrats to the Tesla AI team!"' He really did mean "in the car". The safety supervisor is still there, just in another car [1], so it's not technically a lie, silly us! [1]: https://xcancel.com/JoeTegtmeyer/status/2014410572226322794#... .

are we really to the point of calling someone a liar for something they clearly didn't say and you even quoted?

Re: Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

#358

Post by squibonpig »

eudamoniac wrote: post #354
rcxdude wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You attempt to ID them and pick them up later, and if you can't, you let them go.

Well, I'd rather they just get pitted. If someone is at the point of fleeing from police in a high speed chase, I want them removed from society, because nobody well adjusted and beneficial does that. Whether that's by arrest or by accidental death, I really don't mind either way. The alternative also emboldens criminals to flee as a first resort and to plan around that possibility. Fortunately in USA we have many st…

Yeah but a ton of random non criminals die because of these maneuvers as well

Re: Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

#359

Post by jjfoooo4 »

giobox wrote: post #15
loourr wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lane keeping is a default feature for free on all tesla's and this article doesn't say it's going away.

Its being reported elsewhere that future new teslas will not have basic autopilot (the name Tesla use for the standard lane keep assist they offer) at all, the only way to get any form of lane keep assist will be to subscribe to FSD. The wording in the ars article linked here does a terrible job of explaining the change. Existing Teslas which already have basic Autopilot will still continue to have the feature. New T…

Isn’t lane keeping pretty standard for most new cars?

It’s like an upside down freemium model - try out our basic self driving product, which is (now) the worst in the market, so you’ll convert to the premium FSD offering.

Re: Tesla kills Autopilot, locks lane-keeping behind $99/month fee

#360

Post by testing22321 »

Zigurd wrote: post #349
testing22321 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, correct. The next step will be remote monitors with the ability to drive if needed. That will be identical to Waymo I now. Then the next step is nobody watching. Progress is fantastic, it means more choices for consumers, lower prices, better tech.

No, actually, nobody remote drives a Waymo. If you don't know how Waymo works, you also don't know how far behind is Tesla. There are fundamental obstacles to Tesla ever being a viable robotaxi.

Waymo have remote humans that can take over control when neeeded. It sounds rare, but it does happen.

https://waymo.com/blog/2024/05/fleet-response#:~:text=In%20f...

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