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Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

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Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#351

Post by [deleted] »

wpm wrote: post #331
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right of course. For me there’s no flow state possible with LLM “coding”. That makes it feel miserable instead of joyous. Sitting around waiting while it spits out tokens that I then have to carefully look over and tweak feels like very hard work. Compared to entering flow and churning out those tokens myself, which feels effortless once I get going. Probably other people feel differently.

I'm the same way. LLMs are still somewhat useful as a way to start a greenfield project, or as a very hyper-custom google search to have it explain something to me exactly how I'd like it explained, or generate examples hyper-tuned for the problem at hand, but that's hardly as transformative or revolutionary as everyone is making Claude Code out to be. I loathe the tone these things take with me and hate how much ext…

[deleted]

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#352

Post by embedding-shape »

BananaaRepublik wrote: post #346
embedding-shape wrote: post #95

> But what was the fire inside you, when you coded till night to see your project working? It was building. I feel like this is not the same for everyone. For some people, the "fire" is literally about "I control a computer", for others "I'm solving a problem for others", and yet for others "I made something that made others smile/cry/feel emotions" and so on. I think there is a section of programmer who actually do…

> I think there is a section of programmer who actually do like the actual typing of letters, numbers and special characters into a computer... This sounds like an alien trying and failing to describe why people like creating things. No, the typing of characters in a keyboard has no special meaning, neither does dragging a brush across a canvas or pulling thread through fabric. It's the primitive desire to create som…

My entire point is that people are different. For some people (read through the other comments), it's quite literally about typing of characters, or dragging a brush across the canvas. Sure, that might not be the point for you, but my entire point of my comment is that just because it's "obviously because of X" for you, that doesn't mean it's like that for others.

Sometimes I like to make music because I have an idea of the final results, and I wanna hear it like that. Other times, I make music because I like the feeling of turning a knob, and striking keys at just the right moment, and it gives me a feeling of satisfaction. For others, they want to share an emotion via music. Does this mean someone of us are "making music for the wrong reasons"? I'd claim no.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#353

Post by aspenmartin »

BananaaRepublik wrote: post #346
embedding-shape wrote: post #95

> But what was the fire inside you, when you coded till night to see your project working? It was building. I feel like this is not the same for everyone. For some people, the "fire" is literally about "I control a computer", for others "I'm solving a problem for others", and yet for others "I made something that made others smile/cry/feel emotions" and so on. I think there is a section of programmer who actually do…

> I think there is a section of programmer who actually do like the actual typing of letters, numbers and special characters into a computer... This sounds like an alien trying and failing to describe why people like creating things. No, the typing of characters in a keyboard has no special meaning, neither does dragging a brush across a canvas or pulling thread through fabric. It's the primitive desire to create som…

I don't think these characterizations in either direction are very helpful; I understand they're coming from a place with someone trying to make sense of why their ingrained notion of what creativity means and what the "right" way to generate software projects is is not shared by other people.

I use CC for both business and personal projects. In both cases: I want to achieve something cool. If I do it by hand, it is slow, I will need to learn something new which takes too much time and often time the thing(s) I need to learn is not interesting to me (at the time). Additionally, I am slow and perpetually unhappy with the abstractions and design choices I make despite trying very hard to think through them. With CC: it can handle parts of the project I don't want to deal with, it can help me learn the things I want to learn, it can execute quickly so I can try more things and fail fast.

What's lamentable is the conclusion of "if you use AI it is not truly creative" ("have people using AI lost all understanding of creativity or creation?" is a bit condescending).

In other threads the sensitive dynamic from the AI-skeptic crowds is more or less that AI enthusiasts "threaten or bully" people who are not enthusiastic that they will get "punished" or fall behind. Yet at the same time, AI-skeptics seem to routinely make passive aggressive implications that they are the ones truly Creating Art and are the true Craftsman; as if this venture is some elitist art form that should be gate kept by all of you True Programmers (TM).

I find these takes (1) condescending, (2) wrong and also belying a lack of imagination about what others may find genuinely enjoyable and inspiring, (3) just as much of a straw man as their gripes against others "bullying" them into using AI.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#354

Post by biophysboy »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #311
embedding-shape wrote: post #95

> But what was the fire inside you, when you coded till night to see your project working? It was building. I feel like this is not the same for everyone. For some people, the "fire" is literally about "I control a computer", for others "I'm solving a problem for others", and yet for others "I made something that made others smile/cry/feel emotions" and so on. I think there is a section of programmer who actually do…

You’re right of course. For me there’s no flow state possible with LLM “coding”. That makes it feel miserable instead of joyous. Sitting around waiting while it spits out tokens that I then have to carefully look over and tweak feels like very hard work. Compared to entering flow and churning out those tokens myself, which feels effortless once I get going. Probably other people feel differently.

I feel differently! My background isn't programming, so I frequently feel inhibited by coding. I've used it for over a decade but always as a secondary tool. Its fun for me to have a line of reasoning, and be able to toy with and analyze a series of questions faster than I used to be able to.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#355

Post by embedding-shape »

curt15 wrote: post #349
phicoh wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see is not so much in how you generate the code. It is about how to maintain the code. If you check in the AI generated code unchanged then do you start changing that code by hand later? Do you trust that in the future AI can fix bugs in your code. Or do you clean up the AI generated code first?

There is a related issue of ownership. When human programmers make errors that cost revenue or worse, there is (in theory) a clear chain of accountability. Who do you blame if errors generated by LLMs end up in mission critical software?

> Who do you blame if errors generated by LLMs end up in mission critical software?

I don't think many companies/codebases allow LLMs to autonomously edit code and deploy it, there is still a human in the loop that "prompt > generates > reviews > commits", so it really isn't hard to find someone to blame for those errors, if you happen to work in that kind of blame-filled environment.

Same goes with contractors I suppose, if you end up outsourcing work to a contractor, they do a shitty job but that got shipped anyways, who do you blame? Replace "contractor" with "LLM" and I think the answer remains the same.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#356

Post by a022311 »

embedding-shape wrote: post #95

> But what was the fire inside you, when you coded till night to see your project working? It was building. I feel like this is not the same for everyone. For some people, the "fire" is literally about "I control a computer", for others "I'm solving a problem for others", and yet for others "I made something that made others smile/cry/feel emotions" and so on. I think there is a section of programmer who actually do…

I think both of you are correct.

LLMs do empower you (and by "you" I mean the reader or any other person from now on) to actually complete projects you need in the very limited free time and have available. Manually coding the same could take months (I'm speaking from experience developing a personal project for about 3 hours every Friday and there's still much to be done). In a professional context, you're being paid to ship and AI can help you grow an idea to an MVP and then to a full implementation in record-breaking time. At the end of the day, you're satisfied because you built something useful and helped your company. You probably also used your problem solving skills.

Programming is also a hobby though. The whole process matters too. I'm one of the people who feels incredible joy when achieving a goal, knowing that I completed every step in the process with my own knowledge and skills. I know that I went from an idea to a complete design based on everything I know and probably learned a few new things too. I typed the variable names, I worked hard on the project for a long time and I'm finally seeing the fruits of my effort. I proudly share it with other people who may need the same and can attest its high quality (or low quality if it was a stupid script I hastily threw together, but anyway sharing is caring —the point is that I actually know what I've written).

The experience of writing that same code with an LLM will leave you feeling a bit empty. You're happy with the result: it does everything you wanted and you can easily extend it when you feel like it. But you didn't write the code, someone else did. You just reviewed an intern's work and gave feedback. Sometimes that's indeed what you want. You may need a tool for your job or your daily life, but you aren't too interested in the internals. AI is truly great for that.

I can't reach a better conclusion than the parent comment, everyone is unique and enjoys coding in a different way. You should always find a chance to code the way you want, it'll help maintain your self-esteem and make your life interesting. Don't be afraid of new technologies where they can help you though.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#357

Post by hackable_sand »

layer8 wrote: post #273
loubbrad wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there is a section of programmer who actually do like the actual typing of letters, numbers and special characters into a computer... Reminds me of this excerpt from Richard Hamming's book: > Finally, a more complete, and more useful, Symbolic Assembly Program (SAP) was devised—after more years than you are apt to believe during which most programmers continued their heroic absolute binary programming. At t…

I think this is beside the point, because the crucial change with LLMs is that you don’t use a formal language anymore to specify what you want, and get a deterministic output from that. You can’t reason with precision anymore about how what you specify maps to the result. That is the modal shift that removes the “fun” for a substantial portion of the developer workforce.

That's not it for me, personally.

I do all of my programming on paper, so keystrokes and formal languages are the fast part. LLMs are just too slow.

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#358

Post by hackable_sand »

judahmeek wrote: post #234
frizlab wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there is a section of programmer who actually do like the actual typing of letters, numbers and special characters into a computer, and for them, I understand LLMs remove the fun part. Exactly me.

That's because physical programming ing is a ritual. I'm not entirely sure what that means myself, so please speak up if my statement resonates with you.

Corporations trying to "invent" agi is like that boss in bloodborne

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#359

Post by hackable_sand »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #318
zjzkshz wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there is a section of programmer who actually do like the actual typing of letters Do people actually spend a significant time typing? After I moved beyond the novice stage it’s been an inconsequential amount of time. What it still serves is a thorough review of every single line in a way that is essentially equivalent to what a good PR review looks like.

Yes, for the type of work LLMs are good at (greenfield projects or lots of boilerplate).

Novice work

Re: Don't fall into the anti-AI hype

#360

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

martin-t wrote: post #133
RadiozRadioz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel similarly for a different reason. I put my code out there, licensed under the GPL. It is now, through a layer of indirection, being used to construct products that are not under the GPL. That's not what I signed up for. I know the GPL didn't have a specific clause for AI, and the jury is still out on this specific case (how similar is it to a human doing the same thing?), but I like to imagine, had it been mad…

If you want, I made a coherent argument about how the mechanics of LLMs mean both their training and inference is plagiarism and should be copyright infringement.[0] TL;DR it's about reproducing higher order patterns instead of word for word. I haven't seen this argument made elsewhere, it would be interesting to get it into the courtrooms - I am told cases are being fought right now but I don't have the energy to fo…

There was a legal analysis of the copyright implications of Copilot among a set of white papers commissioned by the Free Software Foundation: https://www.fsf.org/licensing/copilot/copyright-implications...
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