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Modern cars are spying on you. Here's what you can do about it

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Re: Modern cars are spying on you. Here's what you can do about it

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a 2021 Camry there is an below-dash fuse labeled "DCM" which you can remove (and it does disable OnStar/telemetry, but not sat.radio[0]) — it also disables one of the speakers (used for phone calls), which there is a bypass to resolve (but it still requires removing infotainment, so at that point just unplug it there.?!). [0] It was my understanding that, like GPS-receivers, Sirius/XM was one-way streaming, only..…

There are GPS antennas that land on that DCM and the data from that is forwarded over carplay/android auto. Phones fall back to their onboard GPS but it's a much worse experience than we're accustomed to. If you share the car with someone expect complaints. Pulling the cell antenna(s) is the most elegant solution. People shouldn't be afraid of a little work.

I don't use cell phones but still this'll get me in the dashboard sooner than I had intended (never, before).

Hadn't really thought about the car broadcasting its bluetooth/RF . Is the SiriusXM traceable?

Re: Modern cars are spying on you. Here's what you can do about it

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nevertheless, URLs are as public as door knobs. If someone is merely observing that a door is unlocked and they have not stolen anything, they have done nothing wrong. People being prosecuted over discovery and disclosure of horrible design flaws based on URLs should never be prosecuted. If they use the information to actually cause damage, we can be in agreement that they are responsible for the damage.

>People being prosecuted over discovery and disclosure of horrible design flaws based on URLs should never be prosecuted. If they use the information to actually cause damage, we can be in agreement that they are responsible for the damage. That's literally the current state of things.

Are you sure? I seem to remember people getting burned for publicly disclosing security vulnerabilities after stubborn agencies refused to fix them for years. Stuff like, exposing thousands of SSNs through a public gateway... We are literally having this discussion on URLs because of famous cases where people DID face unfair treatment. I don't recall any actual fix for this legal chicanery either. If you do, I would be very interested.

Re: Modern cars are spying on you. Here's what you can do about it

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modem is usually in the sharkfin with the XM radio chipset and GPS. If you can unplug it at the sharkfin that's usually the best course of action. Some cars may bark at you, but mine just says it can't detect GPS if I attempt to use it (which I never use anyway).

Wouldn't it be better to connect resistive pigtails to the antenna connectors on the board? A little more work to get to, but less risk to damaging paint and weather seals, and would do a better job preventing signal leakage. I'm no expert on such things, but will definitely be looking at something like that for the next car I buy.

Not sure what you mean, the antennas are on the sharkfin board and you get to it from under the headliner not from the top of the car. It's much easier just to disconnect the cable that goes to the sharkfin than actually removing the entire module in the sharkfin.

Re: Modern cars are spying on you. Here's what you can do about it

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how these comments are made on a social media website.

HN is not a social media platform in the traditional sense. For one, it is completely anonymous, unless your "handle" is somehow linked to a real identity (by choice or otherwise). It's very, very different from posting every aspect of your life on a platform like Facebook.

Anonymousness does not make a platform unsocial (Twitter, 4chan, 8chan, reddit, HN, IRC, PlentyOfFish, X, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, Tinder, StumbleUpon, FourSquare, BeReal, WhatsApp, democratic voting, any forum, YouTube, Wikipedia, any BBS)

Re: Modern cars are spying on you. Here's what you can do about it

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People being prosecuted over discovery and disclosure of horrible design flaws based on URLs should never be prosecuted. If they use the information to actually cause damage, we can be in agreement that they are responsible for the damage. That's literally the current state of things.

Are you sure? I seem to remember people getting burned for publicly disclosing security vulnerabilities after stubborn agencies refused to fix them for years. Stuff like, exposing thousands of SSNs through a public gateway... We are literally having this discussion on URLs because of famous cases where people DID face unfair treatment. I don't recall any actual fix for this legal chicanery either. If you do, I would…

> I seem to remember people getting burned for publicly disclosing security vulnerabilities after stubborn agencies refused to fix them for years. Stuff like, exposing thousands of SSNs through a public gateway..

This has never happened in the US on the federal level. Unless your definition of "getting burned" is a nasty email from a clueless non-LE government worker.

> We are literally having this discussion on URLs because of famous cases where people DID face unfair treatment

I don't think any reasonable person can read through the court filings in those (Auerheimer, Swartz) cases and agree with the claim that there was unfair treatment wrt the application of the CFAA, or that the CFAA was unfair because it covers those cases.

I totally understand how someone who has not spent time familiarizing themselves with the actual details of the cases might be under the opposite impression; they are frequently misrepresented by people with agendas and nerds who mistakenly understand judicial process as a "Captain Kirk vs Computer" scenario.

There's a trend in communities like HN to claim that the CFAA is bad because Swartz deliberately broke the law while he engaged in some pretty cool civil disobedience. That's not reasonable. Two things can be true at once: what Swartz did was in fact cool and laudable, it still shouldn't be legal. Similarly, a reasonable person might consider it cool and laudable to punch a nazi, doesn't mean it should be legal.

In any case, there's also a trend of misrepresenting the potential penalties involved. On HN, you'll see people posting about how Swartz was facing 30 years in prison, which is an outright lie. Swartz had, in fact, behaved as described in the indictment; he had two plea deals on the table. One for 6 months with the opportunity to argue for further leniency from the judge, and another for 4 months outright. Lawyers familiar with the case have stated that it was very likely that he wouldn't have gone to prison at all.

Swartz killed himself, so the CFAA must be bad, but it's probably realistic to assume that Swartz did not kill himself because he was scared of spending a few months in prison. He was likely seriously mentally ill, and a victim of the poor state of the US healthcare system, not of the CFAA or the DOJ.

Re: Modern cars are spying on you. Here's what you can do about it

#356
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people live on a few islands of density in a sea of nearly empty land in the US.

Most people live in cities, but the vast majority of American cities do not approach even 10% of the quality and availability of transit in NYC. That's why I said that NYC is a massive outlier among the rest of the US.

I don’t think the average city is a useful comparison when more people live in larger cities which tend to have better mass transit options.

People live car free in a wide range of cities, it’s more convenient for more people in NYC thus the large percentage of people doing so, but the percentage is rarely zero.

Re: Modern cars are spying on you. Here's what you can do about it

#357
post #172

> The first thing drivers should do is be aware of what data their car is collecting > You can opt out lol this makes it seem so simple. I think - you will never be aware of what data is collected - they want to collect more data and never disclose it - you will never be able to opt-out. Even if you disconnect from cellular, at service time they will just download what is there. - car manufacturers will use any and a…

I don't disagree with you on BMW's data collection capabilities. However, I've read about 2023s being tuned. It's also widely reported that BMW encrypted many of the computers starting in 2024.

This past September, BMW disabled 3rd party access (think Home Assistant) to vehicle data. There are only 2 paid 3rd party companies allowed. 2+ years of me using HA (with some awesome automations) was terminated. I was willing to let them use my data as long as I could too, but now I don't even have access to my own data!

Re: Modern cars are spying on you. Here's what you can do about it

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it be better to connect resistive pigtails to the antenna connectors on the board? A little more work to get to, but less risk to damaging paint and weather seals, and would do a better job preventing signal leakage. I'm no expert on such things, but will definitely be looking at something like that for the next car I buy.

Not sure what you mean, the antennas are on the sharkfin board and you get to it from under the headliner not from the top of the car. It's much easier just to disconnect the cable that goes to the sharkfin than actually removing the entire module in the sharkfin.

Ah, didn't know there was a board in there or that there was a way to get to it from the cabin.

Re: Modern cars are spying on you. Here's what you can do about it

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had assumed you were coming from a similar position, and your argument was more of a reductio-ad-absurdum. But if you're not - the fact it's putting a chilling effect on this activity right here is a problem. Another big problem is the complete inequity. It takes the digital equivalent of hopping over a fence and turns it into a serious federal felony with persecutors looking to make an example of the witch who can…

>I had assumed you were coming from a similar position, and your argument was more of a reductio-ad-absurdum. >But if you're not - the fact it's putting a chilling effect on this activity right here is a problem. I've personally had my own CFAA-related criminal troubles in the distant past, but I still have a hard time seeing the big problems with CFAA so often touted on HN. The activity of childish vandalism by floo…

I'm not really looking to litigate the larger point with you. I had really thought you were coming from a place of not liking the CFAA but interpreting it as harshly as possible (especially with that username!)

In general in this argument here and our previous argument, you're focused solely on intent to the exclusion of analyzing actual actions. You're then attributing malevolence to the intent of the individuals acting, while giving a pass to the companies (in this case Mazda) that is also operating with malicious/adversarial intent. You're missing that criminality also revolves around specific actions - in this case unauthorized access.

> people (or companies!) buying devices with software they don't like was never something CFAA was intended to address.

It most certainly addresses this. If I loaded up a PC with a remote access trojan, sold it on the used market, and then spied on the buyer, I would be looking at a CFAA prosecution. This is exactly what companies are doing with embedded spyware, yet it's not prosecuted.

Re: Modern cars are spying on you. Here's what you can do about it

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easier than that, you can remove the cellular modem. Dealers won't generally accept to make this mod, but any independent shop should be able to. There are also plenty of videos on YT to DIY.

I some months back called every independent EV mechanic I could find a listing for in my state to see if they would help me disable the cellular modem of any of the models I was interested in buying, and they mostly told me either that they couldn't or wouldn't. One of the more polite shops I got in touch with explained that many models don't have a separate board that can be disabled anymore, or otherwise have more…

As far as I know, all modern Toyotas have discrete DCMs (data communication modules) that can be physically unplugged with limited side effects. The side effects are loss a speaker and hands-free microphone, but they be restored by means of a bypass harness. Simply unplugging the antennas does not seem to be enough in areas with good cellular coverage. I have seen the dummy load approach discussed on car forums but have no experience with it.
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