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Racism at a gaming company

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Re: Racism at a gaming company

#351

Post by sadface »

jeltz wrote: post #306
pja wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the tone argument. Are you looking to round out the racism discussion derail bingo card, or just completely clueless?

I am not sure he is using the tone argument, since he concludes with "but I agree that the author deserves some justice.". He may just be suggesting that many here at HN attack the author due to the racist tone of the post. Pointing out an ugly tone does not mean you think it invalidates the argument.

The "tone argument" isnt necessarily an attempt to counter the opposing viewpoint. It's a derailment.

"Yes, you're angry but instead of talking about why you're angry let's talk about how the way you expressed your anger is inappropriate".

Its an inappropriate topic change, directing blame at the author when it's really not warranted.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#352

Post by sadface »

jeltz wrote: post #306
pja wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the tone argument. Are you looking to round out the racism discussion derail bingo card, or just completely clueless?

I am not sure he is using the tone argument, since he concludes with "but I agree that the author deserves some justice.". He may just be suggesting that many here at HN attack the author due to the racist tone of the post. Pointing out an ugly tone does not mean you think it invalidates the argument.

The "tone argument" isnt necessarily an attempt to counter the opposing viewpoint. It's a derailment.

"Yes, you're angry but instead of talking about why you're angry let's talk about how the way you expressed your anger is inappropriate".

Its an inappropriate topic change, directing blame at the author when it's really not warranted.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#353

Post by MartinCron »

dmorgan wrote: post #334
MartinCron wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously asking these questions? Do you realize that you're coming across as defending deplorable behavior? Do you care? Would you say these sorts of things to the author's face? There's a large sea of historical context that we're all swimming in. You can pretend it doesn't exist and make your cute little conjectures about Irish and Redneck jokes.

> Are you seriously asking these questions? Do you realize that you're coming across as defending deplorable behavior? Do you care? Would you say these sorts of things to the author's face? I sure would. He comes off as a judgemental, reverse-racist (I lost count of the "anti-white-in-general" references), and unable to take a joke guy with an axe to grind. I care far more for actual cases of racism, like an over-rep…

I see where you're coming from. I guess I should have said "there's a large sea of historical context that the OP was swimming in"

It feels you're setting up a false dichotomy between "actual" racism that involves things like incarceration rates and workplace discrimination and "fake" racism that involves things like hostile workplaces and harassment. It is possible to care about both.

And maybe you wouldn't cry over jokes like that, but it doesn't mean that it's wrong for someone else to have a different response.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#354

Post by cameronh90 »

w1ntermute wrote: post #290
k-mcgrady wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something I find interesting. AFAIK in the US because of free speech nobody can really do anything in law regarding racism. In the UK in the last few years there have been several high profile cases of racial abuse on Twitter and the racists have gotten jail time (one example at the bottom of the article linked below). Protecting free speech is important. However most people probably agree there should be a l…

> In the UK in the last few years there have been several high profile cases of racial abuse on Twitter and the racists have gotten jail time (one example at the bottom of the article linked below). This is one of the advantages of having a written constitution. You can't just do things on a whim that violate basic principles of the country, since they're clearly codified in writing.

As a resident of the UK, I think that if we did have a written constitution, regrettably free speech wouldn't be on it. As much as I personally believe in free speech, I do get the impression that the general public here don't.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#355

Post by makomk »

chojeen wrote: post #161
rauljara wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're leaving out a pretty important bit of context. He isn't talking about white people in general, here. He is talking about a very specific subset of people who have had power over him, and said pretty racist things to him. I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to my white mother when he said dumbwhite. While I agree that the saintly thing to is respond without bringing up your persecutors' race, I am pretty sympat…

> You're leaving out a pretty important bit of context. He isn't talking about white people in general, here. He is talking about a very specific subset of people who have had power over him, and said pretty racist things to him. I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to my white mother when he said dumbwhite. So racial epithets are OK as long as you're targeting a group of people who have wronged you? Got it. Not that…

> So racial epithets are OK as long as you're targeting a group of people who have wronged you? Got it.

So long as you're talking about a group of people who have systemic, institutionalized power over you based on the colour of their own skin? Damn right they're OK. I hate to break it to you, but it's pretty much only white people that think race is no big deal. People of colour tend to get disabused of that foolish idea pretty damn quickly by reality. See for instance http://www.womanist-musings.com/2012/02/anti-racist-billboar...

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#356

Post by Lukeas14 »

larrybobsf wrote: post #324
Lukeas14 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of how pissed off he may have been, you don't fight racism with more racism. All that does is exacerbate the situation and hurt your credibility. Calling someone a dumbwhite * might feel good but does nothing for your cause. I've always believed the correct response to racism is to educate. Educate his coworkers on the origin and significance of his necklace and why they shouldn't equate the way he dresses…

The employee in the hostile work environment doesn't say that he said "Dumbwhite " - it's an internal response and doesn't indicate that he's fighting racism with racism. Objectively based on the incident presented, it's a simple statement of fact that the co-worker, is dumb, white and a . It's not the job of members of minority groups to educate members of majority groups on their culture. People who aren't members…

Regardless of where he said it, "dumbwhite*" is a phrase with racist intent. Objectively based, "fucking black people" is just a reference to people with a dark skin color but in the context of the English language we all know what it means.

I agree it's not his job to educate, and he shouldn't have to. But in reality, most racists are not going to educate themselves. If they did, they probably wouldn't be racists. So if he actually wants to see a positive change and stop Steve from making racist comments, his best bet is to try and educate Steve himself.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#357

Post by wonderzombie »

russelluresti wrote: post #327
tptacek wrote: post #137

Decoder ring for nerds who are unable to read past words like "neoliberal colonizer" without racing to the nearest TEXTAREA: * A black coworker is singled out by another (non-black) coworker with "watch out for that guy, he’s trouble, he talks a lot of shit" * Referring to a latino coworker, that same coworker suggests jokes: "Like ‘you’re a mexican whore’ or like ‘your mother’s a Mexican whore?" * The black coworker…

I don't believe the author is trying to unfairly tarnish the company he worked for. I do, however, believe that he cannot be an objective witness of events, as his recollection is being strongly influenced by his own personal biases. You make it seem so nice when you say "the author as an advocate for a fairly specific set of political and social beliefs." But let's be honest, the author is a racist. I get his frustr…

Also, bonus points for flipping it around suggesting the real racist here is the victim. Now it's rhetorically impossible to point out that white people have a sense of privilege without also being racist oneself! Well played.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#358

Post by nivla »

recycleme wrote: post #279
001sky wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relevant> via google image search: http://allthingsd.com/20120530/kixeyes-games-on-facebook-are...

http://www.kixeye.com/#/en/lobby

Clicked on the About link, christ they are all dressed up as something out of a Nazi movie!!!

Well maybe I would have looked at it differently if it wasn't for OP's blogpost but still cheesy.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#359

Post by psykotic »

JPKab wrote: post #165
tptacek wrote: post #137

Decoder ring for nerds who are unable to read past words like "neoliberal colonizer" without racing to the nearest TEXTAREA: * A black coworker is singled out by another (non-black) coworker with "watch out for that guy, he’s trouble, he talks a lot of shit" * Referring to a latino coworker, that same coworker suggests jokes: "Like ‘you’re a mexican whore’ or like ‘your mother’s a Mexican whore?" * The black coworker…

Brilliant analysis. I am one of the readers who had deep concern for the truthfulness of these observations. If they are true, then he got screwed, royally, and should sue. Except for the pendant comment. That's just a case of taking yourself too seriously. Yet another nail in the coffin of his credibility.

> Except for the pendant comment. That's just a case of taking yourself too seriously. Yet another nail in the coffin of his credibility.

What nails? You're treating his every statement as suspect by default based on the racial, sexual and political stereotype you are projecting onto him. Judging by the admittedly superficial evidence of your post history, you are a Randian libertarian with a stereotypical dislike of women and racial minorities who claim victimhood. You must be used to people automatically classifying you by a stereotype and refusing to engage with you. If only in that respect, you're exactly like him and others whose arguments you reject offhand.

Elsewhere in this thread you explain that your skepticism is based on personal experiences. Many people reading that will assume you're lying or that your view of what happened was warped. How does that make you feel? Like a victim of stereotyping? You may even write off those people as dumb liberal motherfuckers.

Re: Racism at a gaming company

#360

Post by Lukeas14 »

sadface wrote: post #332
Lukeas14 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of how pissed off he may have been, you don't fight racism with more racism. All that does is exacerbate the situation and hurt your credibility. Calling someone a dumbwhite * might feel good but does nothing for your cause. I've always believed the correct response to racism is to educate. Educate his coworkers on the origin and significance of his necklace and why they shouldn't equate the way he dresses…

It's not his responsibility to "fight racism", it's the responsibility of his employers to provide a non-racist workplace. Your "correct response" is of course ideal, but imagine how draining it would be for someone to attempt to change an corporate culture 200+ people. It's unfair to expect that from an someone whose only wants to not have to endure severe racism at their 9-5.

I agree it's not his responsibility (but explained why he should anyways in response to larrybobsf).

I also said that in this case, where it was systemic and tolerated, he made the right decision to escalate it to HR and the court system who actually have the power to do something about it.

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