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Restrictions on house sharing by unrelated roommates

marginalrevolution.com

351–360 of 418 posts

Re: Restrictions on house sharing by unrelated roommates

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems unreasonable to me unless there is some reasonable justification as to why 4 is legal but 5 is illegal. Like I can see why life in a house with 5 people might in some ways be more difficult than life in a house with 4 or 3, but I don't see why it should be illegal. People can think about these things for themselves and decide what works for them. Sure, most houses won't accommodate 5 roommates, but there als…

The electrical outlet requirement is for fire prevention, to reduce the use of long extension cords and people using multi-outlet adaptors. The parking thing I agree with. If you want to try to run a retail business without parking, good luck but you should not be prohibited from doing it.

Well, I didn't know the origin, that's interesting. I'm still very skeptical of the rule.

There are other fire safety rules in the US that are considered sacred, like residential buildings more than three floors having multiple staircases, but these building codes don't exist in Japan or Europe and fire deaths per capita are just about the same. Meanwhile, it significantly increases the cost of building housing in the US.

I imagine there are lots of places without this socket rule, and if some economist would look at the rates of electrical fires between these places, that would be amazing.

I just hate this pattern of regulation in general. Step 1: identify problem (some building materials can cause cancer). Step 2: Come up with some countermeasure (put a sign on every building saying that the building materials might cause cancer). And then they stop. They forgot step 3! Step 3: Check if your countermeasure actually did anything useful! Did cancer rates go down after prop 65? Yes, but when when you control for smoking rates, no, the effect of prop 65 seems to be nothing.

Re: Restrictions on house sharing by unrelated roommates

#352
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, they want the authority over the land without buying or otherwise having to expend finances to control the land.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. Zoning regulations should reflect the desires of a community, and there's no inherent reason they can't be more restrictive than yimbys would like.

The whole theoretical conception of property rights is that a property right is the right to control what happens on your property, which implies you don't have the right to control what happens on other people's property, because that right belongs to other people. You can't eat your cake and have it.

If you want property to be a neighbourhood thing then you should also be required to let the benefits of your own property accrue to your whole neighbourhood and not just yourself. So no tall fences for example. How come everyone else should have to do what you want, but you shouldn't have to do what everyone else wants?

Re: Restrictions on house sharing by unrelated roommates

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "yimby"s go to higher government to force localities to adopt rules they vote against, i.e. they get their way with authoritarian policies that apply outside of "their backyard". Some even think there should be national laws! They want their policies applied to essentially an entire continent. Nimbys typically don't care about things that are not part of their locality. San Francisco wants giant skyscrapers?…

And this is because individual property rights must not be sacrosanct in a civilized society. We already have a number of rules of what you can and can't do with your private property that I think most people agree on. You can't build a slaughterhouse right in the middle of a residential area. You can't dump your garbage into the water flowing through your property. Etc. Those are rules we all agree on because they h…

We should probably try to keep them to a minimum though, lest we stifle innovation. You wouldn't want to stifle innovation, would you? Or inadvertently destroy shareholder value?

Re: Restrictions on house sharing by unrelated roommates

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously I don't care about that freedom. Just like I don't care about the freedom to put up ugly billboards on your land. That's why we bought a home in an area that bans those things. It also requires ugly parking lots to be set back behind a tree line, and new residential developments must have bike trails that connect to the wider network. I'm happy for you to live somewhere where you have that freedom though. I…

So you don't care about other people's freedoms but yimbys are bad because they're "authoritarian". Got it, totally cool, logical, and consistent. You could just be honest and say "I want to use government power to suit my needs, even if it costs other people. But no one else can do that". It's pretty selfish but at least we'll know where you stand.

Yeah that's why I moved somewhere where those were the agreed local regulations and everyone else was on the same page. That's why local governance is good. Everyone can find somewhere where they can be happy.

Re: Restrictions on house sharing by unrelated roommates

#355
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1970s, it was usual for working class newlyweds would have to live with their parents until they were able to find housing. That's why second-rate comedians of the time like Les Dawson had so many mother-in-law jokes: there was an awful lot of resentment between young men and their mothers-in-law to exploit. There's nothing new about multiple families crowding into houses designed for just one family in this c…

In 1970 you could basically buy any non-city plot of land and build a shack on it without anyone bothering you. Think of the back to the land hippies in California just chopping down trees and starting their little communes -- they'd be utterly fucked if they did that now, some Karen would rat them out instantly to planning and zoning committee. In the late 60s/70s DIY builders were almost completely displaced by dev…

Apparently there are still some states that are pretty lax, I've heard Wyoming doesn't terribly care much.

But then you're a billion miles from anywhere.

Re: Restrictions on house sharing by unrelated roommates

#356
post #65

For a few weeks I was looking to rent a bedroom to use as an office, because my wife works at home and takes a lot of in-person meetings in our house, and also to help with work-life separation. I reached out to a few people who were advertising for roommates, proposing to pay significantly less in rent, with limits on the hours I could access the space and how I could use it (no sleeping over, no cooking in the kitc…

I can understand why they wouldn't cut you a deal. It would be virtually impossible for them to rent that space the other 16 hours a day. They want to capture its full value.

It's like being surprised that the car salesman doesn't want to take you up on your offer of paying substantially less to just buy the back half of the car.

Re: Restrictions on house sharing by unrelated roommates

#357
post #56
post #19

I find the comments on the site that it would have no economic demand laughable. Everything has demand the question is at what cost. If an SRO could cost 500$ a month in NYC people would jump on it. And don't get me wrong SROs were not happy places, people living in them should just try not being to poor to have real housing (sarcasm). I think homeless issues would not be solved but at least partially mitigated if SR…

Ecconomics always depends on the situation of the person in question. I want a 100 room mansion with my own pipe organ, and whatever other "scoopy-doo" things I can dream of. I want servants to take care of it. I want... I can't afford that, but I can afford a single family house so that is what I have. Most people living with roommates don't want that situation (here I distiguish roomates from someone you have a rom…

I think it's also correct (and important) to acknowledge the problems that SROs were causing, and why people turned against them in general.

If you refuse to acknowledge the problem, you're doomed to repeat the cycle again when the problems start happening again.

(Many of the problems can be mitigated against if you admit they exist, and work with them.)

Re: Restrictions on house sharing by unrelated roommates

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My town has built several "transition" apartment buildings for the homeless to give them a "stable" place to live while they in theory get their lives together. They quickly became shitholes, residents destroyed the apartments and especially the common areas/hallways/elevators. They also let any number of acquaintances into the buildings and the apartments, further contributing to the destruction. Half the units are…

Instituions are full of terrible abuse. Freezing to death on the streets is better than institutions - that is how bad instituions end up being in practice. I don't have a good answer to the problem.

It seems there has to be some amount of institutional supervision that would make them at least not as bad as freezing to death in the streets.

But one of the big problems is that almost all of them forbid drugs, the very high they want, so they're a non-starter.

You probably need something like "drug towns" in the California desert that provide comfortable places to overdose to death. Good luck running on that!

Re: Restrictions on house sharing by unrelated roommates

#359
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine someone running on a long conveyor belt. The belt is just fast enough that they can keep up with it, but any small mistake, hesitation, or fall means they are dragged behind. On that conveyor belt falling behind is the default state. To stay in one place one must do the right things at all times and also be lucky enough that no bad things happen to you. This is the experience of many. The speed of the conveyo…

In reality, you choose the speed of the conveyor belt. You choose what expenses you take on and therefore how much you need to make each month. To a large part, you can slow the belt down if you like. Options like boarding houses would allow people to slow it down even more precisely if they wanted without falling off entirely. > To stay in one place one must do the right things at all times and also be lucky enough…

It's an almost immutable part of human nature to get into a position where you're "just getting by" - but if there's someone out there in a similar situation making less than you, you could match them dollar for dollar and have some to save.

Which means that for many it's not a financial problem, it's a self-control problem.

I can't afford to save, but I can afford to pay 10-20% extra on everything through credit cards.

Re: Restrictions on house sharing by unrelated roommates

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you don't care about other people's freedoms but yimbys are bad because they're "authoritarian". Got it, totally cool, logical, and consistent. You could just be honest and say "I want to use government power to suit my needs, even if it costs other people. But no one else can do that". It's pretty selfish but at least we'll know where you stand.

Yeah that's why I moved somewhere where those were the agreed local regulations and everyone else was on the same page. That's why local governance is good. Everyone can find somewhere where they can be happy.

> everyone else was on the same page

You can't know that though. Unless you hold a referendum to renew the rules every year and they pass by a 100% majority.

The only honest way to do it is without invoking government power. Move to a gated community. Have a neighborhood association, funded solely by residents, whose bylaws require that it gets to have any property up for sale in the community as long as it matches any other accepted offer on it.

If you want your "dream community" spend your own money. Don't go into other people's pockets.

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