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React is winning by default and slowing innovation

lorenstew.art

351–360 of 866 posts

Re: React is winning by default and slowing innovation

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can make a blog without a framework. But for complex applications it’s far better/easier than raw DOM manipulation or rolling your own thing.

We should probably be making widget toolkits for the Canvas and using WebSockets for communication. DOM manipulation is a total hack-job. It's somewhat flexible, but the performance and dark-pattern cost is just too great. If you're making an interactive application, then treat it like an application and draw widgets to a canvas.

This is an insane take, show me a responsive button with hover state and a tooltip implemented in the canvas that outperforms a button rendered with React.

Re: React is winning by default and slowing innovation

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the problem is that browsers don't really serve their original purpose anymore. Google functionally controls just enough of a monopoly via chrome that they can generally do whatever they want (and not do whatever they don't want to do). So that standards still mostly can't do anything google isn't enthusiastic about dumping dev time into. And they're just barely not enough of a monopoly that they can'…

> Google functionally controls just enough of a monopoly via chrome that they can generally do whatever they want Crazy statement. Any API not supported by Safari might as well not exist.

How many APIs in Chrome today will never appear in Safari?

WebSQL? WebUSB?

It seems like Safari bends towards whatever is in common use, at least within a few years.

Re: React is winning by default and slowing innovation

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should probably be making widget toolkits for the Canvas and using WebSockets for communication. DOM manipulation is a total hack-job. It's somewhat flexible, but the performance and dark-pattern cost is just too great. If you're making an interactive application, then treat it like an application and draw widgets to a canvas.

Accessibility suffers with that approach.

It doesn't just suffer it's impossible unless you recreate the whole thing with actual HTML behind the rendered version.

Re: React is winning by default and slowing innovation

#354

React isn't winning by default. It's been so effective, so well designed that it's lived long enough to become the defacto standard... and the villian. Claiming React is slowing innovation is an absolutely bonkers take when React is essentially the only sane stable choice in a sea of "me too" frameworks and libraries with conflicting and confusing design choices.

How much innovation is needed. often iteration is better and cheaper.

Re: React is winning by default and slowing innovation

#355
"Innovation" has been React reinventing itself, what, three or four times now?

I am so sick of "innovation". How about we innovate a solid baseline, establish an orthodoxy, and build on top of that. Oh wait, we already did, its called Web Components.

NOT React, which seems to change face every time someone needs a new resume badge.

Re: React is winning by default and slowing innovation

#356

Web components are the way out of this trap. Every single framework that isn't React should be wholeheartedly supporting web components to make sure that they have access to a viable ecosystem of components and utilities without having to bootstrap an entire competitor to React and it's ecosystem. While a lot of people view web components as competitors to frameworks, they don't really have to be. The just define an…

Strong disagree. Web Components are react in different clothing. You don’t need this component-based framework style architecture to write applications for the browser. I promise writing applications for the browsers is not challenging. You don’t need big frameworks or component madness that’s more of the same.

You don’t need big frameworks or component madness that’s more of the same.

You don't, but in any sufficiently complex app you'll end up writing a sort of 'mini framework' of your own as you abstract all the things that crop up more than a few times. That framework might be really nice at the start but it'll get more and more hacky as the project continues, especially if you're constrained by resources. Eventually you'll regret not using something standard.

If there are more than a couple of developers on the project it'll be something no one really likes after a year or two.

If there are more junior developers it'll be a reason for them to want to get off the team because they won't want to be a part of the 'old legacy code'. Then it'll be hard to find people who want to join.

Eventually, as it gets harder to recruit people to the team because it's on a weird, legacy framework that no one knows, there'll be a big project to refactor it on to something more standard. That'll probably be React. At the same time most of the senior developers will be calling to scrap the codebase entirely and rebuild it (wrongly in almost every case, but they don't care and want a greenfield project to play with new things on.)

This is a story that has played out at every large org that builds apps internally, and probably a lot of startups as they mature and need to hire more devs. You might as well skip all of it and use a standard framework from the start.

Re: React is winning by default and slowing innovation

#357

Web components are the way out of this trap. Every single framework that isn't React should be wholeheartedly supporting web components to make sure that they have access to a viable ecosystem of components and utilities without having to bootstrap an entire competitor to React and it's ecosystem. While a lot of people view web components as competitors to frameworks, they don't really have to be. The just define an…

I worked on a business app made with lit web components and all properties being stringly typed was a real drag. It didn't compare to a realtime-first component library.

Re: React is winning by default and slowing innovation

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't align with the idea of how good react is or the technical merits of it. I also am not saying teams I have been on that picked react made the wrong choice. That's all in context and as you said startups are often in the "get things done" mentality where tech debt won't matter if you can't survive long enough for it to matter.

It’s good enough that the ecosystem outweighs the superiority of something like SolidJS. React has React Native as part of its ecosystem. That’s a massive advantage. react-strict-dom is going to be a game changer for the development of universal apps.

We're talking about two different topics here. I agree, the ecosystem around react is huge and there are reasons a team would pick react. Ecosystem isn't an indicator of the technical merits of react itself though, and that's what I was originally responding to here.

Re: React is winning by default and slowing innovation

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all phone apps could be a web app

A great native app on an iPhone feels far superior to a mobile website. The gestures, the stack navigator, haptics, scrolling, native ui primitives, etc… Also iOS accessibility screen reader APIs are way better than the web. Accessibility actions for instance are great.

It doesn't have to be this way though. What you're describing is a result of Apple intentionally prioritizing native over web apps to maintain control of their lucrative walled garden.

Re: React is winning by default and slowing innovation

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the problem is that browsers don't really serve their original purpose anymore. Google functionally controls just enough of a monopoly via chrome that they can generally do whatever they want (and not do whatever they don't want to do). So that standards still mostly can't do anything google isn't enthusiastic about dumping dev time into. And they're just barely not enough of a monopoly that they can'…

> there are strong technical forces that want the browser to finally finish morphing from a document viewer to an application runtime I really hope that never happens if only because the web dev on ramp will discourage anyone without preexisting technical chops.

> because the web dev on ramp will discourage anyone without preexisting technical chops.

This is a good thing! It keeps salaries high and keeps the dilettantes out. I am sick of getting my work devalued by morons

There are too many people trying to build "tech" who shouldn't be. We need more gatekeepers

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