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We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

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Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#351

Post by saghm »

hax0ron3 wrote: post #227
danny_codes wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean I live in the US and people are getting persecuted right now for being a minority, being politically active, or being in legal trouble. So not seeing a huge difference between liberal democracies and authoritarians.

I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference. Just imagine the difference in the level of fear that you would feel about 1) getting up in a public square in the US and yelling that Trump is a terrible person who should be removed from power, vs. 2) getting up in a public square in Russia and yelling that Putin is a terrible person who should be removed from power.

> getting up in a public square in the US and yelling that Trump is a terrible person who should be removed from power

I think lot of people I know would feel concerned about what might happen to them if they did that right about now. I don't pretend to know anything about you, but it might be worth examining whether the level of concern you expect people would have about this might vary quite between people with different circumstances than yours. At least to me, it seems pretty likely that if a country were to slide into authoritarianism, not everyone would feel the effects equally all at once, so the fact that you haven't felt a change in your level of concern about this doesn't necessarily mean that a shift isn't happening.

To be clear, I'm definitively not saying that it's impossible for anyone to know whether it's happening or not because we can't know the experience of literally everyone, or that I'm 100% positive what we're experiencing will end up in undeniable strict authoritarianism for everyone. My point is that I do think there's been a genuine shift in how safe a large number of people feel from persecution in the past year and a half that's based on things happening to them or people in similar circumstances to them. It's certainly possible that I'm in a bubble where I'm associating with a lot more people than average who have these concerns, but the reverse is equally true for someone who hasn't been noticing these things, and I do think there's sufficient evidence that the concerns are real. The implicit assumption that everyone feels equally comfortable in their rights protecting them just isn't something that seems accurate right now.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#352

Post by skeezyboy »

torginus wrote: post #207
darthoctopus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read the article? Here is the situation in China: > Here's what's actually happening. As of 2024, there's still no nationwide social credit score in China. Most private scoring systems have been shut down, and local government pilots have largely ended. It’s mainly a fragmented collection of regulatory compliance tools, mostly focused on financial behavior and business oversight. While well over 33 milli…

I've always told people that social credit as used by China was unsed to track dishonest businesses who scammed people and/or other businesses by breaking agreements and not delivering as promised. The fact there's a credit system that protects banks from the people makes it painfully obvious who is in charge of Western society - consider this: You take out a loan to contract the company to build you a house. The com…

> The bank is protected automatically but it's up to you have to run after your money yourself.

oh yeah and whos guaranteeing borrowers for these banks? source would be nice but I bet you dont reply

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#353

Post by exe34 »

hax0ron3 wrote: post #236
pharrington wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard of what ICE has been doing for the last six months? And that Trump has militarized Washington DC?

Yes, but ICE is not deporting, denaturalizing, or imprisoning US citizens for their political opinions, and I would have very little to no fear about going to Washington DC right now, standing up on a podium, and yelling that Trump sucks while there are 100 National Guardsmen across the street from me. This is very different from what things are like in places like Russia.

yet.

right now they are "deporting" (without due process it's kidnapping/trafficking) in order of skin colour. they will work their way down towards you.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#354

Post by skeezyboy »

INTPenis wrote: post #317

We sure do, it seems like a natural progression of a free market. The corporations want to know our worth before they deal with us. I'm speaking from a Swedish perspective but for a long time already we had these "credit checks", where a company can quickly order a check on a customer to see if they're eligible for paying via invoice, or installments. And the consumer gets a letter in the mail notifying them of each…

the entire first world has credit checks. china is doing behaviour checks

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#355

Post by skeezyboy »

ecshafer wrote: post #107
janalsncm wrote: post #73

> Citizens are tracked for every jaywalking incident, points are deducted for buying too much alcohol The first time I visited China I was under 21 but I had heard the drinking age was 18 so I went to a convenience store to buy a beer. Person running the till was probably 12 and didn’t say a word or ask for ID. Unbelievably lax compared to the US sometimes. I generally think it’s easier and more effective to track th…

I am not Chinese, my wife is though. I think, at least from my interpretation of it from being in China and having Chinese family, that something like underage drinking is seen more as a family issue, than a legal issue. What stops the 16 year old from drinking? The fact that their friends / family will see them being drunk, and think less of the person and their family. A 16 year old being drunk in public is family…

> but China has very little drunken / raucous public behavior than the west does

they were big on the opium, as I recall

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#356

Post by derelicta »

jongjong wrote: post #256

This is a great article. It reminds me of a discussion I had about Russia; in Russia (and China) you are essentially told what you are not allowed to discuss freely... In the west, you are told that you can discuss anything but, in reality, the consequences for discussing certain topics are significant... You only find out once you start using your so-called 'free speech'. In the west, 'free-speech' isn't free at all…

It's crazy right? We've reached a threshold were even basic anti-war activism is de facto prohibited. In the UK, acting or even PROTESTING against the war machinery will get you jailed for 15 years if not deported.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#357

Post by XorNot »

benreesman wrote: post #345
mattnewton wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west Okay but that is exactly why I would prefer a western liberal government. It is better and that is ideal is worth criticizing authoritarians for, and fighting to keep in the west.

There isn't an "authoritarian bit", it's not binary. When I was young the idea that your own computer would spy on you, or the one in your phone, or in your car? That was a William Gibson novel, wiretaps happened to mob bosses, you didn't worry about it happening to you as part of a dragnet. Security camera? You mean in a bank right? Microsoft bundling IE was so egregious that the department of justice took time off…

Okay but no scandal can damage a politician because you the American people are currently choosing to let that be the case.

Same with the billionaires.

The entire problem gets painted as "other" but it's you: you're actually promulgating it by your very choice of language here!

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#358

Post by [deleted] »

jychang wrote: post #340
eadmund wrote: post #328

> The only difference between your phone and China's social credit system is that China tells you what they're doing. And that I have a choice of phones, or even no phone at all, and none of my phone options is legally permitted to execute me. Further down, the article argues that switching costs between private companies are ‘enormous.’ I don’t know if they are that large, but however painful it is to switch from Ap…

> is legally permitted to execute me. Plenty of cops have shot/executed innocent people, and were declared not guilty due to qualified immunity. Plus, a phone in China can't execute you either. It'd be the police goons who do that.

[deleted]

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#359

Post by immibis »

gruez wrote: post #81
multjoy wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you’re in a jurisdiction in which they’re liable for that mistake.

I don't think there's any jurisdiction that puts the identity theft victim on the hook for fraud. Yes, you might get threatening letters or dings on your credit report/score while the issue gets sorted out, but that's not the same as being "blamed" for the identity theft, any more than someone wrongly accused of a crime is "blamed" for the mistaken identity.

There's probably no jurisdiction that says the victim is on the hook, but plenty where the victim is on the hook by default and it's not possible for them to exercise their theoretical rights.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#360

Post by immibis »

ch4s3 wrote: post #205
propagandist wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to think awfully highly of your ability to reason about the world, but I find your claim to be fairly lacking. This all reads like the ramblings of a 19 year old who just discovered Chomsky. Address the argument rather than engaging in ad hominem.

It really isn't an argument. You have tons of meaningful economic choices everywhere in American life. You can bank with any bank and look for competing offers for credit to do useful things. For example you can buy a home and shop for a better interest rate by taking an offer for a loan from one lender to another and 9 times out of 10 you'll come away with a better offer. But you can easily not take on a loan and ch…

Can you not bank, if all the banks are colluding against you? And still have the rest of your rights? Can you rent without a four times yearly inspection by the landlord?
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