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Fight Chat Control

fightchatcontrol.eu

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Re: Fight Chat Control

#351

Post by NoboruWataya »

Svip wrote: post #330
throwaway89201 wrote: post #126

Please also fight mandatory age verification with prison sentences. The European Parliament has already voted in favor of a law that mandates age verification for pornography with a one year prison sentence. It was included as a last minute amendment into this bill [1]. See "Amendment 186". It has been completely missed by news organizations and even interest groups. The full accepted article reads: "Disseminating po…

A little more context: that article 3 paragraph 2.a. was added by parliament (not proposed by the Commission). But paragraph 1 (same article) was altered to this text: > Member States shall take the necessary measures to ensure that the intentional conduct referred to in paragraphs 2 to 8 is punishable. (Emphasis being the change.) So they only mean the intentional act of putting up pornography without age verificati…

The positive intentional act, I guess, is disseminating the material. Proving intent and various ancillary concepts like knowledge, etc, are the bread and butter of prosecutors, so I don't think the act would be as difficult to enforce as you suggest. Sure, there might be corner cases where you can say "oops I forgot to password protect that Dropbox link" but certainly porn websites that don't do age verification will have a hard time arguing their conduct was not intentional.

Re: Fight Chat Control

#352

Post by uyzstvqs »

Disposal8433 wrote: post #9

I'm French and every idiot supports it, even the so-called left. There is nothing I can do except donate money every month to GrapheneOS ( https://grapheneos.org/donate ). Democracy is dead for me.

It's not a left-right divide. Privacy advocates are a combination of the general right-wing + the anti-establishment left-wing. The people supporting this are establishment career politicians, who are left-wing as well (e.g. ylva johansson), though different from the anti-establishment left-wing (e.g. pirate party).

Anyone who tries to make this a left-right issue must stop, because that's how we lose.

Re: Fight Chat Control

#353

Post by nickslaughter02 »

pakitan wrote: post #154
rdm_blackhole wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only the first step in the process. First they will force all messaging/email providers to implement the scanning. Those who refuse or decide to leave the EU as Signal said they would do, would end up being unlisted from Google Play or the Apple (EU) app store. Then the second phase is coming by 2030. Read about the ProtectEU (what a fucking ridiculous name) proposal which will mandate the scanning on device…

> Read about the ProtectEU (what a fucking ridiculous name) proposal which will mandate the scanning on device and basically record everything you do on your device. Where can we read about that? The official documents are quite vague and I don't see anything as specific as mandatory device scanning.

I don't know about scanning (that's the goal of this proposal - ChatControl - including scanning of storage*) but ProtectEU involves creating hardware and software backdoors.

* https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ , see the table "The Chat Control 2.0 proposal in detail"

Technical experts call on Commissioner Virkkunen for a seat on the table of the European Commission’s Technology Roadmap on encryption

https://edri.org/our-work/technical-experts-call-on-virkkune...

Concluding report of the High-Level Group on access to data for effective law enforcement

https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/document/download/4802e306...

Re: Fight Chat Control

#354

Post by nickslaughter02 »

cbeach wrote: post #101
rdm_blackhole wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only the first step in the process. First they will force all messaging/email providers to implement the scanning. Those who refuse or decide to leave the EU as Signal said they would do, would end up being unlisted from Google Play or the Apple (EU) app store. Then the second phase is coming by 2030. Read about the ProtectEU (what a fucking ridiculous name) proposal which will mandate the scanning on device…

ProtectEU sounds incredibly dark. Do you have a source for the information regarding on-device scanning? I had a look but only found the bureaucrat-speak overview and they didn’t discuss details.

I don't know about scanning (that's the goal of this proposal - ChatControl - including scanning of storage*) but ProtectEU involves creating hardware and software backdoors.

* https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ , see the table "The Chat Control 2.0 proposal in detail"

Technical experts call on Commissioner Virkkunen for a seat on the table of the European Commission’s Technology Roadmap on encryption

https://edri.org/our-work/technical-experts-call-on-virkkune...

Concluding report of the High-Level Group on access to data for effective law enforcement

https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/document/download/4802e306...

Re: Fight Chat Control

#355

Post by andrepd »

RansomStark wrote: post #317
Disposal8433 wrote: post #9

I'm French and every idiot supports it, even the so-called left. There is nothing I can do except donate money every month to GrapheneOS ( https://grapheneos.org/donate ). Democracy is dead for me.

Why would you expect anything else from the so-called left? Do you honestly believe only the right want power and control? In my experience the left wants this just as much, if not more than the right. Right-wing politics is starting to show up again in Europe, this is true, but the left / left-of-center has been in power for a long time and need (at least in their view) to remain in power. These kinds of laws allow…

Nice theory, but the European left wing parties (The Left, and Greens) are against chat control, while the right wing parties are in favour.

In the UK, the Conservatives and the "New Labour" aka centre-right Starmer aka Tory Lite are responsible for massive backsliding of civil liberties, while those "far left" types like Corbyn are opposed to it.

So reality, at least in those two examples, seems to contradict your theory.

Re: Fight Chat Control

#356

Post by nickslaughter02 »

zubspace wrote: post #21
9dev wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They only need to succeed one time . People are generally preoccupied with a lot of other things right now, so maybe this is their lucky shot…

It's a shitty system, if one side just needs to succeed one time while the other side needs to succeed over and over again. What really should be done is to disallow proposals, which are kinda the same. Once a mass surveillance proposal like this is defeated, it shouldn't be allowed to be constantly rebranded and reintroduced. We need a firewall in our legislative process that automatically rejects any future attempt…

It exists. Except these mfs will not put the proposal to vote if they know it will not pass. Instead they try again and again to gather the votes.

Re: Fight Chat Control

#357

Post by Svip »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #351
Svip wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little more context: that article 3 paragraph 2.a. was added by parliament (not proposed by the Commission). But paragraph 1 (same article) was altered to this text: > Member States shall take the necessary measures to ensure that the intentional conduct referred to in paragraphs 2 to 8 is punishable. (Emphasis being the change.) So they only mean the intentional act of putting up pornography without age verificati…

The positive intentional act, I guess, is disseminating the material. Proving intent and various ancillary concepts like knowledge, etc, are the bread and butter of prosecutors, so I don't think the act would be as difficult to enforce as you suggest. Sure, there might be corner cases where you can say "oops I forgot to password protect that Dropbox link" but certainly porn websites that don't do age verification wil…

Which leads to my next questions: What is pornography material? Do drawings qualify? What about text? What about softcore pornography? What about a non-profit outfit? What is the amount of pornography material I need to have for it to be considered disseminating? Someone uploads a few suggestive fan art drawings to my niche bulletin board and now I am liable for a year in jail?

Re: Fight Chat Control

#358

Post by andrepd »

sampo wrote: post #342
x775 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately, both the EU Council and the European Parliament must agree on legislation for it to pass. The Parliament acts as a co-legislator with equal legislative power in this process, effectively representing the citizens while the Council represents the member states governments. Both have to agree. In the case of Chat Control, Denmark, as the current EU Council Presidency, revived the proposal (after it previous…

> The Parliament acts as a co-legislator with equal legislative power in this process The EU Parliament doesn't have equal legislative power. EU Commission proposes legislation, and the parliament can only accept or reject. Of course informally they can discuss with the Commission and let the Commission know what they would or would not pass. > effectively representing the citizens while the Council represents the me…

> The EU Parliament doesn't have equal legislative power. EU Commission proposes legislation, and the parliament can only accept or reject.

Note that this means that, crucially, the Parliament also cannot repeal laws. Which means that they can just try and try and try again, and if it passes once, it cannot be withdrawn except by initiative of the commission.

It's like the IRA said to Thatcher, you have to be lucky every time, they only have to be lucky once.

Re: Fight Chat Control

#359

Post by andrepd »

elric wrote: post #323
munksbeer wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the EC does not represent the people, that's the job of MEP The European Council is the heads of each member state. They are literally the people elected by each nation state domestically. If they don't represent the people, then that means national democracy is broken (which I agree with in cases like the UK) but I'm making a more general point. https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/european-council/

I wasn't talking about the council, but the commission. The acronym confusion is unfortunate. Point is that these people are very far removed from elections and political consequences. They also seem to be the types who have no idea what "normal" people are like.

It's a very sad state of affairs that when Trump and von der Leyen meet to represent two of the most powerful entities on Earth, one has been democratically legitimised less than a year ago, and the other has never ran in an election in her life.

Re: Fight Chat Control

#360

Post by nickslaughter02 »

mantas wrote: post #6
ath3nd wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They generally don't and won't stop until there are real repercussions for that, like losing your political career/being canceled in society over voting for it.

The problem is people behind the curtains will just pick another figure head. And we can’t even get the names who want to get rid of privacy. Since names of people pushing it were redacted for their privacy :D

Context: https://digitalcourage.social/@echo_pbreyer/1114997695267549...
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