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NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

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Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#351

Post by plemer »

throwaway290 wrote: post #347
Tadpole9181 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I make a sign that says "Nazis are Evil", and a guy gets upset and says "you can't say that about me" - what do you call that guy? A Nazi. If I make a sign that says "End the Zionist Genocide", and a Jewish person says "you can't say that about me", they don't feel uncomfortable because they're Jewish .

"Zionist genocide" means a genocide of zionist people. Last time I heard it happened was WWII. This thread and replies I got is wild!

Do you really imagine anyone here is convinced by your petty deceptions? We know what words mean.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#352

Post by throwaway290 »

plemer wrote: post #351
throwaway290 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Zionist genocide" means a genocide of zionist people. Last time I heard it happened was WWII. This thread and replies I got is wild!

Do you really imagine anyone here is convinced by your petty deceptions? We know what words mean.

I'm not native English but even I know. For example when we say Ukrainian genocide we mean genocide that kills Ukrainian people. This guy said "Zionist genocide" so what does that mean? That genocide ended decades ago. Who is decepting who and how? Go ahead and unpack for us

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#353

Post by sjsdaiuasgdia »

arp242 wrote: post #328
sjsdaiuasgdia wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> more than half the "country" 2024 voting-eligible population: 244.6M Voted for Trump: 77.3M Voted for Harris: 75M Voted for other candidates: 2.6M Eligible to vote, but didn't vote: 90M Unfortunately, the largest constituency continues to be the "can't be fucked to vote" party.

> the largest constituency continues to be the "can't be fucked to vote" party. It's not that straight-forward as it's not a popular election. Why bother to vote if you live in a deep red or blue state? You can make some sort of abstract argument about civic duty or whatnot, but ... the end result is your vote doesn't matter except for "candidate X got more votes!" type internet arguments.

> You can make some sort of abstract argument about civic duty or whatnot

I wouldn't say it's terribly abstract. If we don't do anything, we probably shouldn't expect results.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#354

Post by ben_w »

petesergeant wrote: post #341
ben_w wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah! No, the reason I'd say against Imperial isn't the college itself (but even then, is still third on the list of Oxbridge and ), it's similar to why I'm not tripping over smart people here in Berlin: fantastic public transit means the smart people aren't all squished together. Town and gown, massive town. Diluted organisational opportunity, less room for serendipity in meeting fellow nerds of whatever topic of int…

With the caveat that I have degrees from Oxford and Cambridge but not Imperial > but even then, is still third on the list of Oxbridge Is this still true? Any ranking I’ve seen recently generally has it right up there. It feels like it’s a name recognition thing rather than quality meter at this point, like Caltech vs MIT. Your points about geography are well taken though.

> Any ranking I’ve seen recently generally has it right up there.

Really? Hm.

The listings I've seen, and the first I found, were UK-focused ones, which put Oxford and Cambridge in the top two, sometimes with others as joint-second, then after that Imperial, e.g. https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universiti...

But to support your claim, I did just find an international ranking that is confusing me by giving rankings for 2026, and for 2025 and 2026 puts Imperial before (and previous years, behind) both of Oxbridge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_University_Rankings

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#355

Post by kevinventullo »

throwaway290 wrote: post #233
plemer wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allowing people to speak out against overt genocide committed by a foreign government = anti-semitism. Isn’t that self-evident? /s Tbh, this standard argument is itself anti-Jewish as it implies this behavior is inherent to being Jewish, which of course is grotesque and inaccurate. * Jewish /= Zionist * Zionist /= Imperialist * Imperialist /= Genocidal What we have really imo is an extreme colonist policy that is onl…

Nice strawman. So how about the actual question which is hostile environment for students? I was downvoted for asking a question and this did not answer it. Edit to reply: what I remember reading was not about saying "end genocide", it was about saying "you are a jew so go die" kind of stuff. It seemed pretty crazy but I didn't save any sources

If you’re genuinely interested in truth, I can tell you that I personally visited the protest site at UCLA in order to get an unfiltered view or what was happening. The signage I saw was largely of the form “End Genocide” or “Divest”. There were also signs criticizing e.g. the border wall with Mexico. A lot of it was critical of Israel, as well as the United States and even the University of California, but none of it was anti-Jewish. In fact there were a few signs of the form “Jews Against Genocide”.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#356

Post by roenxi »

throwaway290 wrote: post #352
plemer wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really imagine anyone here is convinced by your petty deceptions? We know what words mean.

I'm not native English but even I know. For example when we say Ukrainian genocide we mean genocide that kills Ukrainian people. This guy said "Zionist genocide" so what does that mean? That genocide ended decades ago. Who is decepting who and how? Go ahead and unpack for us

Ah right. Well if your not a native speaker - this isn't exactly a formal rule as far as I know, but as a native speaker...

Zionists are ideological people and " Genocide" reads like the ideologues own and are committing the genocide.

Whereas Ukrainian is a denonym and " Genocide" reads like a genocide done to the denonym. Nazi Genocide -> Nazis did it. Jewish Genocide -> Genocide happened to the Jews.

I'm not sure if that is technically how it would work in a formal linguistic sense, but that would be how I'd expect the terms to be read. Zionists can't really be genocided because Zionism isn't a race, so reading "Zionist Genocide" as happening to the Zionists is difficult. Not a reliable rule though, someone could use "genocide" that way I suppose.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#357

Post by kevinventullo »

I personally visited the protest site at UCLA while this was happening. It was a huge fenced-off encampment on the main lawn in front of the library. The interior of the encampment was mostly tents, while the boundary of the encampment had signs facing outward for passers-by to read. There were no obstructions or barriers to any buildings, though it would take an extra minute or two to walk around the encampment if you were trying to get to a nearby building. Here are some of the signs I saw:

“We believe that Palestinian rights must be achieved without harm coming to any other group or people”

“My Judaism is not Zionism”

“F** Israel” (without the asterisks)

“Jews Say No To Genocide”

“UC you have blood on your hands”

“Filmmakers for a free Palestine”

“Fund our jobs and education not war and occupation”

“Never again means never again anywhere!”

“Free Palestine” with a drawing of a policeman, gun drawn, facing a soldier on fire; clearly evoking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation_of_Aaron_Bus...

“Israeli against genocide”

“UCLA funds war”

“Our liberations are tied”

“Life in everything yearns for the death of occupation” (had trouble parsing this one)

“From Palestine to Mexico border walls have got to go”

This one’s cut off but it ends with “…violation of international law not anti-Jewish bigotry”

A sequence of maps of Israeli/Palestinian borders in 1947, 1967, present day. The map legend labels are “Palestinian Land” and “Jewish/Israeli Land”. There is also a text-based “timeline” starting in 1948, focusing mainly on Palestinian deaths and displacements.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#358

Post by throwaway290 »

roenxi wrote: post #356
throwaway290 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not native English but even I know. For example when we say Ukrainian genocide we mean genocide that kills Ukrainian people. This guy said "Zionist genocide" so what does that mean? That genocide ended decades ago. Who is decepting who and how? Go ahead and unpack for us

Ah right. Well if your not a native speaker - this isn't exactly a formal rule as far as I know, but as a native speaker... Zion ists are ideological people and " Genocide" reads like the ideologues own and are committing the genocide. Whereas Ukrain ian is a denonym and " Genocide" reads like a genocide done to the denonym. Nazi Genocide -> Nazis did it. Jewish Genocide -> Genocide happened to the Jews. I'm not sure…

> Zionists can't really be genocided

What I see in dictionary is "rational or national group". I guess Zionism does not fall under "national group". I still think the usage is still wrong, unless you can find an example where it is used that way.

In any case this thread justification of how it is okay to attack jews or israelis (or tell me it didn't happen if you have better information than me) for being jews after oct 7 and israeli government response is crazy. Like I'm Russian and I don't support Ukrainian war (by the way not the only shitty thing russian government does, see criminalization of LGBT people etc) so what now, should I be targeted and shouted at by people with signs because of something I can't change? Should I hide my rusianness? At a place I live and study at? Sure it's probably wrong/illegal to take away grants for this but if I was a student at a uni would that be a hostile environment? I kind of think so.

I would say free speech must have some standard in civilized community, but since someone said that hate speech is protected on public uni campuses in US then I can say nothing.

Again tell me if I am wrong and Jews were not personally attacked for being Jews after oct 7. I have a vague understanding of what happened.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#359

Post by davrosthedalek »

hackyhacky wrote: post #208
cvoss wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accusation from DOJ isn't about student speech, though. It's about the university's actions or inactions, which are not protected and are governed by obligations to Title VI discrimination law.

You're right, but the university is not allowed to censor student speech based on content. The "actions" that the administration claims the university should have taken would have violated the constitution.

I don't think this is quite correct, at least for private universities. They absolutely have the right to disallow protests on their property. The first amendment protects you from the government -- the government cannot force the university to take these action, but the university could totally do it on their own. It's a little bit murkier with state universities, because you could argue they are a part of the government.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#360

Post by davrosthedalek »

lupusreal wrote: post #307
throwaway290 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so if I get it correctly they could be kicked out like in the cinema or not, because like I assume regardless of free speech there are rules, but this "cinema" cannot be prosecuted by US gov for NOT kicking a noisy jerk out of it because then it becomes a free speech thing. If taking away grants counts as prosecution? I guess that makes sense.

State schools like UCLA cannot restrict speech in the same way that private organizations could, because they are part of the government. The cinema analogy is therefore spurious.

Honest question on this: It is clear that first amendment protects the rights of protesters from persecution by the government. But does that mean that the government would need to endure protests in any federal building at any time?

If not, I think you could make a case that UCLA could kick protesters out, for example if they take over a building. In contrast to a private university, they probably couldn't act on what the protesters do outside of the university. But I do think that they must have some regulatory power on campus.

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