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Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#351

Post by quitit »

scarface_74 wrote: post #259
quitit wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering Apple isn't even a go-to choice for gamers, the idea that iOS's minority market-share is holding back Windows, Android (and even macOS), is nothing short of farcical b/s-ing. Heck, most developers don't even produce versions of their games for any Apple hardware, even though there are plenty of cross-platform development suites.

I think you are misinterpreting what “games” are. Mobile gaming and in app purchases of loot boxes and other pay to win mechanics are a much bigger market than console or PC games.

Though Apple’s current level of web app support is sufficient to build those kinds of titles as web apps, but we aren’t seeing a web app gold rush, and even if there was zero web app support - why not develop one anyway so Android, Windows, Linux and Mac have a shared web app, instead of 4+ separate binaries.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#352

Post by scarface_74 »

quitit wrote: post #351
scarface_74 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are misinterpreting what “games” are. Mobile gaming and in app purchases of loot boxes and other pay to win mechanics are a much bigger market than console or PC games.

Though Apple’s current level of web app support is sufficient to build those kinds of titles as web apps, but we aren’t seeing a web app gold rush, and even if there was zero web app support - why not develop one anyway so Android, Windows, Linux and Mac have a shared web app, instead of 4+ separate binaries.

Because HN users won’t admit that it isn’t Apple holding back PWAs - it’s the technology, the business use case, and the fact that the majority of Android phones out in the wild are too underpowered.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#353

Post by itopaloglu83 »

scarface_74 wrote: post #350
itopaloglu83 wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you use another browser today even if it does use Apple’s engine, Apple’s not making search revenue from Google. Yes, but this would limit the browser technology to Apple's implementation, or lack there of. > Those apps are not going to the web. It's likely because the mobile browsers don't support enough graphics and lacking robust control features of native applications. > Third, if the only thing stopping gre…

That still isn’t logical. If Apple is the only thing holding great web apps back, then why don’t companies just spend money on a web app + iOS app instead of also creating an Android app? Even if they did an iOS app + web app for Android, if it were just Apple, they would still save money on Android Play Store fees. But the truth is that browsers aren’t good enough on Android even though it is “open” [sic] and most A…

> Having the Firefox engine or Chrome engine isn’t going to make it any better.

Nothing is going to change in the short term for sure. Users also prefer the responsive feeling of native apps in general, though progressive web apps might help slightly.

I still believe that the EU started with the correct intentions with the DMA. They saw a need to increase the competition in the digital marketplace. However, it slowly turned into a public trial of Apple and transferring the ownership of iOS ecosystem to public domain almost.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#354

Post by paulryanrogers »

gruez wrote: post #326
danbruc wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are not generally used to this in our field but just think about the amount of paperwork you have to go through in order to construct a bridge or an airplane. Browsers have become a critical component and it seem not really unexpected that there will eventually be legal requirements to help to ensure that browsers are safe given the amount of software that runs on top of browsers. And this is also not new, there h…

>but just think about the amount of paperwork you have to go through in order to construct a bridge [...] Yeah, I do. Guess which industry has seen negative productivity growth in the past 2 decades, even though the broader private sector grew by 50%? https://www.economist.com/content-assets/images/20250712_WBC...

Could it be fundamentals are different when you're building physical buildings vs software that's eating the private sector? (Among other factors.)

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#355

Post by blibble »

sealeck wrote: post #94
fabian2k wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying this is against the law, but it is clear that Apple only moves exactly as far as the EU forces it to, not a bit more. And within the limits the law allows, they're doing everything they can to make it tedious and difficult to actually get alternative apps stores or browser engines on their OS.

> it is clear that Apple only moves exactly as far as the EU forces it to I don't think this is a secret - Apple publicly opposes these kinds of laws. > And within the limits the law allows, they're doing everything they can to make it tedious and difficult to actually get alternative apps stores or browser engines on their OS. Sure, it's unclear what the EU can do to oppose this though. If they push too far they ris…

> If they push too far they risk invoking the wrath of the much more powerful US government.

what is it going to do?

threaten massive tariffs then retreat?

repeatedly?

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#356

Post by scarface_74 »

itopaloglu83 wrote: post #353
scarface_74 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That still isn’t logical. If Apple is the only thing holding great web apps back, then why don’t companies just spend money on a web app + iOS app instead of also creating an Android app? Even if they did an iOS app + web app for Android, if it were just Apple, they would still save money on Android Play Store fees. But the truth is that browsers aren’t good enough on Android even though it is “open” [sic] and most A…

> Having the Firefox engine or Chrome engine isn’t going to make it any better. Nothing is going to change in the short term for sure. Users also prefer the responsive feeling of native apps in general, though progressive web apps might help slightly. I still believe that the EU started with the correct intentions with the DMA. They saw a need to increase the competition in the digital marketplace. However, it slowly…

How will responsive web apps help when most Android users aren’t buying top of the line phones and app makers have to create a native app to get any type of responsiveness?

Facebook for instance realized years ago that it would have to make real native apps to get decent performance instead of the app being a web wrapper.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#357

Post by dontseethefnord »

caseyohara wrote: post #214
jermaustin1 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit does this, too. It is used to measure sharing something as some sort of analytic/goal on your account for engagement. I tend to just screenshot them now after the annoying middle menu started popping up for me. I really am not a fan of apps wanting me to engage more with the app when I'm trying to engage with real-life people.

Reddit also has that annoying pop-up when you screenshot something. “Sending this post to someone? It looks better when you share it.” Perhaps they mean it looks better for Reddit’s smarmy user engagement metrics.

I hate this industry so much.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#358

Post by itopaloglu83 »

scarface_74 wrote: post #356
itopaloglu83 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having the Firefox engine or Chrome engine isn’t going to make it any better. Nothing is going to change in the short term for sure. Users also prefer the responsive feeling of native apps in general, though progressive web apps might help slightly. I still believe that the EU started with the correct intentions with the DMA. They saw a need to increase the competition in the digital marketplace. However, it slowly…

How will responsive web apps help when most Android users aren’t buying top of the line phones and app makers have to create a native app to get any type of responsiveness? Facebook for instance realized years ago that it would have to make real native apps to get decent performance instead of the app being a web wrapper.

I'm all for native apps. And you're right about the performance. PWA would only work for very simple stuff.

The end-goal is to turn Apple into a pure hardware vendor so that they can get direct access to end-users.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#359

Post by iknowstuff »

quintu5 wrote: post #271
dmonitor wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that the custom share sheet lets reddit see what services users are sharing to

It also gives them a hook apply a watermark to the shared image.

that can be inserted before presenting the iOS share sheet

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#360

Post by simondotau »

concinds wrote: post #296
simondotau wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The open web requires browser diversity in order to remain healthy, far more than it needs individuals to have browser choice. The former is important for the health of open standards; the latter only matters if you believe the web is whatever Google implements in Chrome. Without healthy browser diversity, the web might as well be renamed the Chrome Protocol and the "browser choice" you care about so much is gone.

That's a deeply fallacious argument. https://infrequently.org/2022/06/apple-is-not-defending-brow...

It's not fallacious, that article is fallacious. By conflating choice and diversity, the article is poorly written and misrepresents the bigger picture. Browser diversity makes the internet better, while browser choice encourages developers to be lazy.

Developers exclusively targeting Chrome and forcing users to switch isn't browser choice, it just replaces one kind of non-choice with another kind of non-choice.

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