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Framework Laptop 12 review

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#351

Post by criddell »

leptons wrote: post #340
eddythompson80 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot you can fault Apple for, but we're literally talking about a 4 year old CPU that is still unmatched by their competition. People often argue "how much is Apple ahead of the competition" if at all, right? Guessing you're in the "not at all, it's all PR bullshit" camp, which is fine. This is the one undisputed example though where we can put a definitive number on it. So far Apple is 4 years ahead of the…

>a 4 year old CPU that is still unmatched by their competition It isn't all that high performance compared to other laptops, but sure.. fanless and low power it has. I just would rather plug in a laptop to get my workload done in 1/2 of the time it would take on an M1 laptop. The Dell laptop we got runs at 55W (Intel Core i9-13900HX) and is faster than the M1 Ultra 20-core at 60 Watts, which you can't even get in a l…

We understand that if you are willing to compromise on the fan and power efficiency, you can get a great machine like your Dell. People with your preferences are well served! The frustration is that there's nothing similar to even an old M1 laptop from other manufacturers. Why not? Apple has shown there's a big market for small, efficient, silent laptops with good displays in the $2500+ range.

Other people in this thread have mentioned a Lenovo Aura as coming pretty close and it does, except for the fan! Is it really that hard to eliminate the fan and get performance / watt numbers like Apple was getting 5 years ago?

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#352

Post by leptons »

criddell wrote: post #351
leptons wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a 4 year old CPU that is still unmatched by their competition It isn't all that high performance compared to other laptops, but sure.. fanless and low power it has. I just would rather plug in a laptop to get my workload done in 1/2 of the time it would take on an M1 laptop. The Dell laptop we got runs at 55W (Intel Core i9-13900HX) and is faster than the M1 Ultra 20-core at 60 Watts, which you can't even get in a l…

We understand that if you are willing to compromise on the fan and power efficiency, you can get a great machine like your Dell. People with your preferences are well served! The frustration is that there's nothing similar to even an old M1 laptop from other manufacturers. Why not? Apple has shown there's a big market for small, efficient, silent laptops with good displays in the $2500+ range. Other people in this th…

In Apple's quest for thinness and quiet they have made lots of undercooled devices that overheat and thermal-throttle and just plain die. That Dell replaced a MBP which replaced another MBP that had to have the motherboard replace 8 times before Apple forced us to sue them in a class action (and we won). If only they had just cooled the thing properly.

>there's a big market for small, efficient, silent laptops with good displays in the $2500+ range.

Yeah, it's called "apple fanboys", people with more money than sense who fetishize slimness and quiet over computing.

The Dell costs less than half the price of a $2500 fanless Apple laptop, so it's really no wonder Apple is forever at ~15% market share - most people prefer to not spend their money on Apple hardware. Price/performance is not what Apple is known for, they are a luxury brand, a status symbol. And that's great if that's what you need, Apple makes a laptop for you.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#353

Post by sillystuff »

nucleardog wrote: post #130

> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line. They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line. That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with you…

I really liked the idea of Framework making inter-changeable parts available for their laptops-- allowing the purchaser to keep the laptop running / upgrading as long as they wish. I also liked not having to buy parts with the laptop that I will be replacing anyway (SSD, RAM). Unfortunately, Framework now includes wifi even with the bare bones laptops, so some e-waste from replacing that.

But, the premium paid is high. And, their warranty support was, in my opinion, not a good experience. The expansion cards, which are just USB dongles internal to the computer, are gimmicky and waste space that could be used for something useful, like a slot for a second SSD, or larger battery.

I ended up sending back the Framework 13, I recently purchased, because of the warranty support experience for a mechanical issue with a single expansion card (usb dongle). Framework support had me jump through hoops for a week, repeating tests, asking me to answer the same questions again and again, and finally, "now do everything again and make a video and upload it to youtube" [actual request from Framework]. All for a part that retails for $9. The experience spooked me, and I sent back the laptop for a refund during the 30 day return window.

The Dell I replaced it with has an inferior screen*, a slightly inferior keyboard, vastly inferior CPU cooling (the Dell thermal throttles under heavy load), but Dell was half the price, and it arrived at my door 8 hours after I ordered it. And, unless things have changed, Dell warranty support was always excellent.

Hopefully Framework fixes the issues with their warranty support process. I hope they succeed.

* Dim screen on Dell mitigated by using the money I saved on the laptop price, to buy a portable 13" e-ink monitor which is vastly superior to the Framework display when working outdoors.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#354

Post by einsteinx2 »

kelnos wrote: post #290
CoffeeOnWrite wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the old machine is still useful intact. I don’t see a difference between laptop and desktop here. I agree I don’t see myself ever swapping in an upgraded motherboard.

> Because the old machine is still useful intact I do wonder how many people repurpose old laptops when they get a new one. I have three old laptops, two of which I haven't turned on since I transferred my stuff to the next one. My partner uses the third one to game sometimes, but she's recently gotten a new laptop of her own (her old one is ancient ), so I expect she'll stop using that one as well. My current laptop…

Maybe I’m reading into this too much, but just the fact you even had to make repairs (plural) in a 3 year old laptop doesn’t speak highly of Framework’s quality. I’d expect to make exactly zero repairs in 3 years of owning any decently built computer.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#355

Post by criddell »

leptons wrote: post #352
criddell wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We understand that if you are willing to compromise on the fan and power efficiency, you can get a great machine like your Dell. People with your preferences are well served! The frustration is that there's nothing similar to even an old M1 laptop from other manufacturers. Why not? Apple has shown there's a big market for small, efficient, silent laptops with good displays in the $2500+ range. Other people in this th…

In Apple's quest for thinness and quiet they have made lots of undercooled devices that overheat and thermal-throttle and just plain die. That Dell replaced a MBP which replaced another MBP that had to have the motherboard replace 8 times before Apple forced us to sue them in a class action (and we won). If only they had just cooled the thing properly. >there's a big market for small, efficient, silent laptops with g…

Assuming everything you say is correct, there are a lot of people with more money than sense. Why is Apple the only company to chase that market?

Apple’s margins are the envy of the industry. Their stores have revenue per square foot numbers that few other retailers can match. Why isn’t there a Dell store across the street from every Apple store? Why doesn’t HP have a machine that goes toe-to-toe with every SKU that Apple sells?

> Apple makes a laptop for you

And, unfortunately, only Apple is making a laptop with those characteristics. My laptop is a ThinkPad because I need Windows and it’s not a very nice computer to use. There’s lots of Linux and Windows people out there who want Apple-like hardware. Some companies copy the superficial aspects, but none copy the internals.

I guess ultimately what I was trying to get at this whole thread is that Framework could make an M1-level machine, right? They just choose not to.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#356

Post by chrismorgan »

badc0ffee wrote: post #230
chrismorgan wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The baseline of 96ppi is nominal only. Form factor and intended distance from screen matters a lot. In the laptop form factor, you’re aiming for more like 110–125 as 1×. Apple laptops range from 221–254ppi as 2×. 186ppi is designed for 1.5×, an uncomfortable space that makes perfection difficult-to-impossible, yet seems to have become unreasonably popular, given how poorly everything but Windows tends to handle it. (…

> Apple doesn’t support it at all Apple's HiDPI is "2x scaled" on Retina and >= 4k displays. But you can still pick a virtual resolution that isn't exactly 0.5x your display's native resolution, and it will look great. For example my external monitor is 3840x2160, and has a default virtual resolution of "1920x1080", but I run it at "2304x1296". My 14" MBP display has a default virtual resolution of "1512x982", but I…

You omitted the next word in your quote, where I mentioned what Apple does—downsampling.

Your displays are high enough resolution that you may not notice the compromises being made, especially if you don’t get an opportunity to compare it with real fractional rendering, but the compromises are real, and pretty bad at lower resolutions. Pixel-perfect lines are unattainable to you, and that matters a lot in some things. And you might be shocked at how much crisper and better old, subpixel-enabled text rendering is on that same display.

Apple was in the position to do it right, better than anyone else. They decided deliberately to do it badly; they bet big on taking typical resolutions high enough that downsampling isn’t normally needed (though they shipped hardware that always needed such downsampling for some years!), and isn’t so painful when it is needed; and they’ve largely got away with it. I still disagree with them.

As for 1352×878, what on earth is that number, for a native 3024×1964 panel!? 2.237. It’s like they’re gloating about not caring about bad numbers and how terribly inconsistent they’re going to make single-pixel lines.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#357

Post by nixpulvis »

broodbucket wrote: post #285
nixpulvis wrote: post #284

Am I the only one who thinks it's foolish not to have a darker color option? Or something more professional? These all remind me of kindergarten.

it's explicitly designed for younger people, they'd say Framework Laptop 13 is what you're describing

I see.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#358

Post by badc0ffee »

chrismorgan wrote: post #356
badc0ffee wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple doesn’t support it at all Apple's HiDPI is "2x scaled" on Retina and >= 4k displays. But you can still pick a virtual resolution that isn't exactly 0.5x your display's native resolution, and it will look great. For example my external monitor is 3840x2160, and has a default virtual resolution of "1920x1080", but I run it at "2304x1296". My 14" MBP display has a default virtual resolution of "1512x982", but I…

You omitted the next word in your quote, where I mentioned what Apple does—downsampling. Your displays are high enough resolution that you may not notice the compromises being made, especially if you don’t get an opportunity to compare it with real fractional rendering, but the compromises are real, and pretty bad at lower resolutions. Pixel-perfect lines are unattainable to you, and that matters a lot in some things…

> Your displays are high enough resolution that you may not notice the compromises being made, especially if you don’t get an opportunity to compare it with real fractional rendering, but the compromises are real, and pretty bad at lower resolutions. Pixel-perfect lines are unattainable to you, and that matters a lot in some things. And you might be shocked at how much crisper and better old, subpixel-enabled text rendering is on that same display.

Do you have a test case where I can see this in action?

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#359

Post by bigyabai »

Lammy wrote: post #321
const_cast wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TF2 won't actually run on a system like that, the system requirements on Steam are a bit of a meme. It's 18 years old but it's also been updated for 18 years.

Yep, last year's 64-bit update is a great example of something that unquestionably breaks the old system requirements: https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/April_18,_2024_Patch

If you open "properties" and then "Betas" in Steam, you can download old 32-bit versions of TF2 and play on dedicated servers. There's also a recompile of the leaked source code available, so I think 32-bit clients with a TF2 addiction will be okay for a while longer.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#360

Post by chrismorgan »

badc0ffee wrote: post #358
chrismorgan wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You omitted the next word in your quote, where I mentioned what Apple does—downsampling. Your displays are high enough resolution that you may not notice the compromises being made, especially if you don’t get an opportunity to compare it with real fractional rendering, but the compromises are real, and pretty bad at lower resolutions. Pixel-perfect lines are unattainable to you, and that matters a lot in some things…

> Your displays are high enough resolution that you may not notice the compromises being made, especially if you don’t get an opportunity to compare it with real fractional rendering, but the compromises are real, and pretty bad at lower resolutions. Pixel-perfect lines are unattainable to you, and that matters a lot in some things. And you might be shocked at how much crisper and better old, subpixel-enabled text re…

Nothing handy, sorry. For comparable results, you’d need to use an old version of Mac OS X. Up to 10.13, I think, if you can ensure subpixel text rendering is active.
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