Live data from Hacker News

Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

news.ycombinator.com

351–360 of 465 posts

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#351
post #114

It's a genuine problem and has been growing gradually worse for a while. I think the cause is simply growth. When a good community grows, it becomes worse in two ways: (a) more recent arrivals don't have as much of whatever quality distinguished the original members, and (b) the large size of the group makes people behave worse, because there is more anonymity in a larger group. I've spent many hours over the past se…

slashdot has pretty much solved that problem. Although i have never looked at that Perl code...

And depending how you configure your filters you'd get Reddit or hacker news from the same bunch of comments.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#352
post #114

It's a genuine problem and has been growing gradually worse for a while. I think the cause is simply growth. When a good community grows, it becomes worse in two ways: (a) more recent arrivals don't have as much of whatever quality distinguished the original members, and (b) the large size of the group makes people behave worse, because there is more anonymity in a larger group. I've spent many hours over the past se…

I wish you'd consider investing less time in technical countermeasures to dumbness (all of them are gameable, and the brand of dumbness you're fighting is not at all incompatible with an intuitive talent for that gamesmanship) and more time into just setting better community norms. It is hard to imagine that the site guidelines you write years and years and years ago when this place was tiny are, intact and without c…

[deleted]

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#353
post #340
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple questions: 1. Why not assign karma by running something like pagerank over the vote graph? I think giving overwhelming weight to high karma old-timers would make HN more like them, which would be an improvement, right? 2. What about assigning karma not by your comments, but by the responses to them? I figure karma-from-replies would shift the conversation to "what should we be asking about this", whereas kar…

(2) probably would not work. Commenters could troll, and then the community replying in disagreement would up-vote their comment. Here are my ideas: (A)Not showing someone their karma score ever, unless it is negative. (B)Leaving a line between the comment field and the reply button saying, "Stay constructive." (C)That line of text could link to the guidelines. (D)Detect if someone says 'idiot' and then change the li…

I actually quite like those suggestions. Subtle but I could see them working well.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#354
post #114

It's a genuine problem and has been growing gradually worse for a while. I think the cause is simply growth. When a good community grows, it becomes worse in two ways: (a) more recent arrivals don't have as much of whatever quality distinguished the original members, and (b) the large size of the group makes people behave worse, because there is more anonymity in a larger group. I've spent many hours over the past se…

Are people banned/ghosted here? I'm assuming so, because that's how most forums work, but I'm not sure since this seems to be custom built. While I don't think that HN has hit this level yet, one solution that I've read about involved people who trolled or posted general nastiness. When people had reached a certain threshold or pissed off the wrong high-level mod, they got "ghosted". What this meant was that people w…

There is a hellban system in place.. your posts are hidden but you don't know it. You have to explicitly go to your options and enable "showdead" so these work.

Problem is it's not entirely clear what some people have done to get hellbanned sometimes.. I'm not sure what the requirements for getting it reversed are, either. I've seen some very constructive comments in that mess before..

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#355
post #114

It's a genuine problem and has been growing gradually worse for a while. I think the cause is simply growth. When a good community grows, it becomes worse in two ways: (a) more recent arrivals don't have as much of whatever quality distinguished the original members, and (b) the large size of the group makes people behave worse, because there is more anonymity in a larger group. I've spent many hours over the past se…

I agree with tptacek - I think a forum can benefit from posting its guidelines somewhere prominent, especially during signup for new people.

That way, the community knows what the values are, etc. To be honest, looking at HN I'm not sure where on the site to find these values right now, myself. I just try to be my own reasonable self :)

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#356
post #114

It's a genuine problem and has been growing gradually worse for a while. I think the cause is simply growth. When a good community grows, it becomes worse in two ways: (a) more recent arrivals don't have as much of whatever quality distinguished the original members, and (b) the large size of the group makes people behave worse, because there is more anonymity in a larger group. I've spent many hours over the past se…

One thing that would solve the problem with growth would be partitioning the "community" into smaller groups that are manageable by each user. Reddit does it through subreddits and it works somewhat. I would favor an approach where users could white/gray/blacklist other users, and use these as modifiers to the overall score.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#357
I can totally relate (though I've had far less balls than you so far). I mostly relate to the the commute but I did post a project about a year ago and though I did see sniping like you speak of the responses i got were actually pretty helpful but I do know what you mean as I've seen it like we all have on other posts.

The things I admire about you posting this most are:

1. You had the balls to not only criticize this place but actually criticize it despite the fact I'm sure you know a ton of people will say your criticism is only your experience or a common newbie mistake (I've seen that said to newbies and veterans alike) or some other sort of response full of denial and meant to shut you up.

2. You criticized despite, I'm sure, knowing many will think you had your feelings hurt due to the response on your projects and are now coming back to whine

For the record, I don't think either of those things are true of you. I totally hear you. I'd also add that this has become a place where group think is acceptable and encourage. HN is now a hive mind. On HN, if you believe... that file sharing sites really are just a place used mostly to download copyrighted media and that's wrong then you are an enemy of freedom around here. If you believe that people who are pirating (as in downloading via channel unauthorized by creator without paying) is wrong and hurts the developer you're an enemy of freedom, free software, and HN. If you use PHP you're not a real developer and you should be mocked. If you like anything about PHP you are dumb and should be mocked. Then we have the classic flame wars that anyone who knows HN would expect to never see here but they do. Often. Like Jobs v. Stallman, Windows v. Mac, Vi v. Emacs, and so on. Really?

And everyone is the smartest person here. Everyone. You could cure AIDS and some guy will come along and talk about how it should've been done faster by doing XYZ. The titles on submissions from many regulars have also gone downhill. We used to get things like "Why technique X helps Y in use case Z". Now we get a lot of arrogant "If you don't do X the way I describe in this post then you don't deserve to live". Okay, it's actually more like "If you do X then you're doing it wrong" or some such.

I wonder why. Maybe we've grown to the point where the sense of community is a little strained, people want to feel smart like all the other smart people, and so now colleagues have become competitors. When that happens what you get is jealousy and instead of helpful suggestions you get sniping because the person is thinking "shit, I have nothing a,axing to contribute so how do I save face and still look smart?". The answer is by bringing everyone else down.

Maybe we've gone from a community of mostly doers to a community of a minority of doers and a majority of spectators. It's just like sports in that case. When you're out in a social setting and a game is on everyone knows better than the coach and players how to play the game. It even becomes acceptable because by nature spectators and players both have roles to play. The players are the "anointed ones", the "professionals", who do things mere mortals cannot (or maybe even should not?) and their job is to play for the benefit (maybe a bad choice of words but along the lines of "benefit") of the spectators. The spectators then, since they have to leave the playing to the professionals, are left to either be delighted when things are going good or criticize when things go bad. The more the spectator longs to be a player but doesn't (either through a false belief that they can't or shouldn't because they weren't "chosen", or because they just don't have the balls to), the harsher their criticism becomes and the more vocal they become.

Maybe that's what has happened around here. I know I for one have been quite intimidated and jealous of others. I often feel what I can contribute cannot match what others are building so I keep it to myself. And when I see a few harsh critiques of something it becomes easy for me to pile on. I'm not above it but I am self aware enough to spot it in myself.

I speak as ive been here a while because I have (relatively speaking of course). I had a 400-something day old account hell banned a couple months ago because of what's happened to HN. I had the wrong opinion and was punished. Even before I created an account I lurked for a year and back then HN was still very intimidating but also far more welcoming and constructive. I really think anyone who is going to trot out the old "oh, this opinion comes around every now and then" or the "that's a common fallacy" argument is in denial. I'd like to see HN redeem itself or go out on top like Jordan (the first time he retired).

One last thing: for what it's worth, yeah HN has gotten a little sucky, but it's still awesome and very redeemable.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#358
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't we all just act like adults and learn to deal with the negative comments Actually I find that harsh comments are more common among children and noobs than adults and experts. A random fan watching a football game in a bar is far more likely to use harsh language about a player who misses a pass than another professional football player would. What's happened here is itself evidence of this trend. The comments h…

Maybe you could attack this directly. Put a field the profile form for "something I've made." Don't allow anyone without an entry there to vote. Half of the benefit would be from filtering out people who aren't really invested in the community. The other half would be from making people think about the magnitude of their own contributions before they criticize someone elses.

Trust me, there are a lot of creative trolls.

Re: Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News..

#359

Hi Steve, I don't know if you are going to read this, but I'm going to write it for the rest of the audience too. I think the trend of dismissing critics and commenting along the lines of "sour grapes" or "haters" very disturbing. Yes I go against your commentary. The great thing about internet and communities based on pseudonyms is that you get the first reaction that people have. Very few will take a few minutes to…

You said a lot of what I just posted except shorter and better. One thing I missed that you got and that's worth expanding on is stardom. The stardom breeds a lot of the groupthink and hive mind around here I think.

I agree that there's a problem with fads and jealousy but I disagree with what that problem is. I think the jealousy comes from us nobody's and not the stars. It's the proletariat, so to speak, that are jealous of not just the stars but anyone who has the guts to put something cool they made in front of HN.

Fads again are just what promotes groupthink. Why does everyone on HN love Ruby but most people outside HN don't have any strong feelings for or against it? Because it's trendy. I work at a company in Chicago where we run our sites and apps on either Java, PHP, or Ruby. No one in the company ever looks down their nose at anyone else not using the language their primarily working with because that shit doesn't matter. The fads on HN aren't real. They're specific to HN and possibly Silicon Valley but people talk about it here as if it mattered somehow.

Overall though, you nailed it. And your very last line definitely holds true.

Post reply on HN