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Accountability Sinks

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Re: Accountability Sinks

#351

Post by yusina »

crazygringo wrote: post #326
ethbr1 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The acute guilt levied wasn't about following orders and exterminating the ground squirrels... ... but using an industrial shredder to do it. (on 440 of them) For reference, this is an industrial shredder: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/I15kCJyl6po Anyone who did that to a live animal deserves to be in prison, orders or no. There are innumerable compassionate, humane ways to kill animals, if it's necessary.

I'm genuinely curious now. If you have 440 squirrels to kill, in an airport , that are legally not allowed to leave the airport ... how the heck would you do it humanely? It feels extremely non-obvious to me. Are there extra-large portable CO2 chambers the size of a whole room or something you can rent? And whose budget is that coming out of? I'm assuming nobody's going to try to inject them all individually with som…

Getting suffocated with CO2 is also a terrible way to die. Animal welfare research is clear on that. There are other options (with other gases that just make the animal fall asleep and avoids the suffocation reflex) but they are still more costly currently. If we'd switch to those then one reason I feel uncomfortable as a meat eater would disappear.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#352

Post by immibis »

blueflow wrote: post #323
immibis wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what they do in Germany. They teach it as a unique thing that can never happen again... which leads people to never question whether it could happen again... which may lead to it happening again, because any sign that it was happening again would be dismissed, because "it can't happen again" is drilled into people. The default attitude of any human is to support the status quo, but you'd think Germany in parti…

I went through German school, did the mandatory trip to Buchenwald, met Pavel Kohn in person and i think you are making shit up. What if US people are less hesitant to make those comparisons because they know less about it?

In Germany it's illegal to compare things to the Holocaust, even if they are like the Holocaust, even if they are literally a second Holocaust. A politician couldn't run on a platform of "we'll do another Holocaust" (they'd be arrested) but could run on a less specific statement like "we'll eliminate the useless eaters to make Germany strong, sending them Aut to Schwitzerland" and you would be arrested for pointing out how Hitlery that implication was. You might get cleared of charges by the court... six months later.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#353

Post by Thorrez »

hamandcheese wrote: post #158
Thorrez wrote: post #85

> And it turns out that the German soldiers faced surprisingly mild consequences for disobeying unlawful orders. Huh. Franz Jägerstätter was executed for refusing to fight in the war.

Franz Jägerstätter was not a soldier.

>Drafted for the first time on 17 June 1940, Jägerstätter, aged 33, was again conscripted into the German Wehrmacht in October and completed his training at the Enns garrison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_J%C3%A4gerst%C3%A4tter

That kind of sounds like he was a soldier to me. Or trained to be one.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#354

Post by Thorrez »

scotty79 wrote: post #134
Thorrez wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meat costs a lot to produce. We eat it because it tastes good, not because it's convenient.

No. Dogs also taste good but they are way less convenient to raise per kilogram of meat then cows. That's one of the main reasons we rather eat cows, pigs and poultry than dogs, dolphins, squirrels or guinea pigs. People do a lot of expensive and wasteful things just because they are convenient in many domains of life. Meat isn't tasty. If it was you wouldn't always eat it fried almost to a char with salt and spices.…

I've tried a lot of different fake meats, and real meat tasted better to me. Sure, meat requires special cooking to taste good. That doesn't mean meat as a whole tastes bad. When other things are cooked the same as meat, they don't taste as good to me as meat.

>Dogs also taste good but they are way less convenient to raise per kilogram of meat then cows.

I'm not saying that meat producers don't optimize their production to lower prices. I'm saying that despite their optimizations, vegetarian foods are cheaper to produce than meat.

>It's easier to keep some cows on grassy hill then kill them, than to create and maintain a field there.

Look at the price of beef vs the price of vegetarian foods. Beef costs more. Also look at the carbon footprint of beef vs vegetarian foods. Beef production produces more carbon.

>Meat is also easy to cook and eat. It digests nicely. It can be used in mono diet with no immediate ill effects. It's a no-brainer food even an idiot can use to sustain themselves. It's hard to poison yourself with it because if it's not fresh it stinks like hell.

I don't think any of those are the main reason people eat meat. In a different comment you say rice, potatoes or lentils are easier to cook such they taste good. I don't think meat is easier to cook than other foods.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#355

Post by blueflow »

immibis wrote: post #352
blueflow wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went through German school, did the mandatory trip to Buchenwald, met Pavel Kohn in person and i think you are making shit up. What if US people are less hesitant to make those comparisons because they know less about it?

In Germany it's illegal to compare things to the Holocaust, even if they are like the Holocaust, even if they are literally a second Holocaust. A politician couldn't run on a platform of "we'll do another Holocaust" (they'd be arrested) but could run on a less specific statement like "we'll eliminate the useless eaters to make Germany strong, sending them Aut to Schwitzerland" and you would be arrested for pointing o…

You know i can check §130 StGB and see you are just making shit up?

Re: Accountability Sinks

#356

Post by MaxikCZ »

einpoklum wrote: post #84
MaxikCZ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still wouldn't change a thing. The gate keeper has no say into who gets let on the plane and who doesn't, they are there just to enforce the decision. The only way to get this solved is if in the executive meetings one person goes "Our processes that bumps people resulted in xxxxxx cost, that's too much". The way those costs are incurred doesn't matter, if its direct compensation or fines, but unless you can attach a…

> The gate keeper has no say into who gets let on the plane and who doesn't, they are there just to enforce the decision. No, that's not true. He is literally, physically, the gate keeper: To pass the gate, he has to let you pass. Now, you could insert another gate keeper into the scenario at the entrance to the airplane, or some turn-style with a scanner etc. but that wouldn't change the basic argument, just make th…

But they are not making the decision whether you are allowed to board or not, they are just there to enforce it. You can't talk your way on a plane with them no matter what you say if your scanned boarding pass lights up red instead of green. They don't have any authority to make decisions.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#357

Post by volleyball »

ethbr1 wrote: post #224
yusina wrote: post #221

The squirrel example sounds terrible, but people don't realize the danger that moving pathogen-carrying specimen across ecosystems poses. Introducing a disease into your local environment can have devastating consquences for wildlife or farming or both. Example: Dairy farms have strict rules about not letting anybody in who was abroad within the last 48 hours because of possible spread of foot-and-mouth disease. Ther…

The acute guilt levied wasn't about following orders and exterminating the ground squirrels... ... but using an industrial shredder to do it. (on 440 of them) For reference, this is an industrial shredder: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/I15kCJyl6po Anyone who did that to a live animal deserves to be in prison, orders or no. There are innumerable compassionate, humane ways to kill animals, if it's necessary.

Is that the type of shredder they used though? It seems too slow especially when considering live squirrels. I imagine it would be more like the one used to kill male hatchlings in the poultry industry[1]. Quicker and bit more humane.

[1] -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udSiluTAOaQ (warning : potentially disturbing footage)

Re: Accountability Sinks

#358

Post by atoav »

hkon wrote: post #259
atoav wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who worked in support as a youngling: If you behave unpleasant enough I'll go out of my way to make sure your behavior does not pay off. I will note your abrasive behavior in the ticket or might even mark your mail as spam. On telephone our line will suddenly experience technical difficulties. And throughout I will remain as friendly and patient as ever. I will warn superiors about you, so once you escalat…

If you are helping, why would they be assholes?

Never worked in customer support huh? Sometimes the first thing you ever hear from a person is them cursing at you. Some people don't even greet you and act downright uncivilized, yelling, aggressive, assuming you not magically only know their problem without them telling you, no you also somehow caused it, on purpose, because you're evil. They haven't even given you a passing chance of helping them.

As someone who grew up in the EU I believe that human dignity is an fundamental right, and that treating a person in a support role with basic manners is in the spirit of that right.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#359

Post by atoav »

whstl wrote: post #306
lolinder wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've clearly never worked customer support. A very disproportionate number of people who call in to customer support are totally and utterly unreasonable. That's why it's such a pain to interact with customer support as a reasonable human: The systems aren't designed for you, they're designed for the abusers who represent something like 20% of the phone calls and 80% of the work.

From my side it feels like customer support systems are designed purely to trap customers in the system so they are unable to cancel. In my last day in South America I spent about two hours cancelling my cable and even though I was very soft spoken and super patient (I was playing Mario Kart on mute so not really uncomfortable), but the customer support person actually CRIED to me because she would “miss her quota” i…

Easily adressible by law. In the EU canceling must be possible by at least the same means as signing up, so if you can sign up via click, you need to be able to cancel via click.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#360

Post by tailspin2019 »

dendodge wrote: post #97
cheschire wrote: post #36

I always remind myself when I have to go to the DMV[0] that I should plan on leaving with nothing more than another action or set of actions to take. I never enter the DMV expecting to complete a process, and the workers behind the counter always have this visible, visceral response when I DONT lose my fucking mind at their response to something. When I continue to be pleasant and understanding it’s like they suddenl…

Off-topic, but since you mention it, I've always been confused about what Americans always seem to be doing at the DMV. It seems to be a staple of pop culture that people are always there and the queue is always very long, but I've never known what anyone is actually trying to achieve. The DVLA in the UK doesn't have a high-street presence. I took my driving test once, then received my driving licence in the post. Wh…

As a fellow Brit I’ve always been puzzled by this too.

The DVLA website and online processes are very good. Which is rare to say about a government IT system. I don’t think I’ve ever had any problems for a decade (or two?) dealing with everything driving-related fully online.

I expect since we just have one single system, and a smaller number of possible workflows/situations to cover, it’s easier to create a central online system. In the US, with 50 different variations perhaps it’s a harder problem to solve.

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