Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes • Hacker News Board

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#351

Post by callc » Sun, May 04, 2025, 3:51 PM UTC

vlan0 wrote: post #177

callc wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely. Since human lives are at stake, it is fair to have an extremely high bar for safety.

It's an interesting bar to set. And it shows how we're willing to bend that safety bar to allow seniors to drive on the roads despite their clear cognitive disadvantage. Let's look at some raw data. Mind you, we have 100x more data for the human drivers below. ie, billions of miles vs millions for automated drivers. Pop examined Fatal-crash rate All Level‑4 automated‑driving tests in the U.S. 1.5–1.7 per 100 M mi Dri…

Yes, it is reasonable to require older folks to pass a driving test that measures alertness, vision, etc. If no pass then take away license.

Heck I was in a parking lot yesterday and almost got hit by a truck, driver is a very old man.

In terms of safety of AVs and human drivers, AVs need to cause 10x less fatalities than humans do in order to be widely accepted by people. It’s an emotional thing.

Just like these humanoid robots we’re seeing companies develop. If we let them loose in society, would it be ok if they only committed murder 1% less than humans do?

People naturally hold the bar higher for robots and computers. It might be for the lack of accountability. I’m not sure of other reasons why this is

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#352

Post by simoncion » Sun, May 04, 2025, 4:38 PM UTC

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 wrote: post #318

simoncion wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A single person could turn all of these things into Decepticon in seconds. ... It could give someone the power of a global army. We're talking about an ordinary semi truck with attached trailer and a bevy of sensors. This isn't a war machine. The worst thing that can happen here is the same thing that can happen with an inattentive or exhausted driver.

I suppose various LEOs are worried over nothing then. I will say this though. Car, like so many other things, is just a tool and like with most, if not all, tools, the question of whether it is a war machine is a rather pragmatic one. Can it be used for war purpose?

> Can it be used for war purpose?

Ah, yes. That historically-well-known war machine known as sunlight and fresh air.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#353

Post by simoncion » Sun, May 04, 2025, 4:41 PM UTC

lnsru wrote: post #297

simoncion wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A single person could turn all of these things into Decepticon in seconds. ... It could give someone the power of a global army. We're talking about an ordinary semi truck with attached trailer and a bevy of sensors. This isn't a war machine. The worst thing that can happen here is the same thing that can happen with an inattentive or exhausted driver.

It’s indeed a war machine. Even going at slowish 60 mph. Trucks go through all barriers and 20 passenger cars over before stopping. The pictures of accidents with asleep truck drivers are shocking.

Dangerous != War Machine

As you mention, the (infrequent, but not nonexistent) accidents caused by overworked commercial semi truck drivers are one of the reasons why I do hope this works at least as well as human long-haul drivers.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#354

Post by simoncion » Sun, May 04, 2025, 4:48 PM UTC

achierius wrote: post #236

simoncion wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we do have is a press release and an indication that the load was delivered. I like how you didn't seem to notice that there are 1,460 days in four years. I get the impression that ten semi-truck hauls a day is a lot. If you hit someone (or wreck the truck) you're not going to make your next haul... you're going to be talking to the cops and/or having a wrecker drag you back home.

But only 1,200 miles without a human accompanying the truck. I assume those 10,000 loads weren't all in that same category -- unless it was going a few hundred feet back and forth each time!

> But only 1,200 miles without a human accompanying the truck.

Sure? You'd only remove the man in the cabin if you'd already run many, many, many miles with the man in the cabin not having to take control.

It's true that the company could be being irresponsible (perhaps even dangerously so). [0] We'll just have to see how the vehicle performs over the next year or five.

Do make sure to compare any reports of failure to the expected rate of failure of human operators.

[0] Given that they're running fully-autonomous commercial payloads, I find this unlikely.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#355

Post by LorenPechtel » Sun, May 04, 2025, 5:37 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #268

LorenPechtel wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it means someone on site to react sensibly when things go wrong. Think of the Miracle on the Hudson. The pilot said "This is the captain. Brace for impact." The flight attendants picked up on that and immediately began directing the passengers on what "brace for impact" means. Without that how many would have reacted properly (the info is on the safety card, but how many have read it well enough??), how many woul…

If a freight train is unstaffed, who would brace for impact? Anyway, labor costs to have a couple engineers aboard is much less than if the load was travelling by truck, even if the trucks have no driver in them, they're likely supervised at a ratio with more humans than it takes to operate a long freight train.

That was a general example, not a specific one.

And in my experience conductors are passenger trains. Freight might have a driver, but no conductor.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#356

Post by LorenPechtel » Sun, May 04, 2025, 5:50 PM UTC

throwaway48476 wrote: post #183

LorenPechtel wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have two examples to look at: Waymo, which appears to be doing an excellent job of handling it. Their robotaxis consistently seem to have a better track record than humans (although it's possible the limits put on them taint the comparison.) Cruise, which had a whole bunch of problems with edge cases and last I knew wasn't allowed to operate anymore. I'd share the road with a Waymo truck (not that their system can…

Once the technology has been proven it should be possible for fast followers to catch up. We can't let the market be captured by whoever passes the bar first.

I'm not saying that competition should be prohibited, but that we seem to have a problem with the requirements for being allowed to operate on the road.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#357

Post by potato3732842 » Sun, May 04, 2025, 11:34 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #350

potato3732842 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The E-log requirement all but eliminates drivers cooking the books. The book cooking happens when the company hires a sketchy firm out of eastern europe to provide the software who then cook the books on the back end. These carriers are a small minority (lest they become juicy targets for enforcement) and have high turnover.

As I said in the post you are responding to: > [T]hese logs aren't checked unless something goes wrong, at which point the company can use to show the trucker was in violation of their stated policies to reduce liability. This doesn't prevent truckers violating policy in any way--truckers simply accept the risk that E-logs will be checked, because most of the time they won't be. And the companies are happy to not che…

Your logs get checked at every single interaction with law enforcement, which is all weigh stations, unless your company has PrePass in which case they're going through your records (I'm unsure how exactly they narc on you but I'm sure at some point they do).

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#358

Post by hansvm » Mon, May 05, 2025, 12:46 AM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #188

o11c wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with railroad is exactly the other side of this: that you can't trivially and automatically detach a single car at any point. I know businesses that literally have an old railroad branch line right up to their door, but they can't actually order anything meaningful via rail. The existing rail system has at least the following constraints: * Uses steel-on-steel friction, rather than rubber-on-rock. Cars th…

The bigger issue is that roads are immensely subsidised compared to rail. Even on private roads that are completely covered by usage charges, trucks pay maybe a factor of 2-10 more than cars, however they cause about 40000 times more wear (let's even disregard how they also cause disproportionately more traffic...). Obviously this calculation becomes even worse if we consider that most roads are subsidised by all tax…

And states like Rhode Island trying to actually charge truckers for those damages keep having their efforts struck down in the courts.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#359

Post by kerkeslager » Tue, May 06, 2025, 4:29 AM UTC

potato3732842 wrote: post #357

kerkeslager wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said in the post you are responding to: > [T]hese logs aren't checked unless something goes wrong, at which point the company can use to show the trucker was in violation of their stated policies to reduce liability. This doesn't prevent truckers violating policy in any way--truckers simply accept the risk that E-logs will be checked, because most of the time they won't be. And the companies are happy to not che…

Your logs get checked at every single interaction with law enforcement, which is all weigh stations, unless your company has PrePass in which case they're going through your records (I'm unsure how exactly they narc on you but I'm sure at some point they do).

Interesting. Maybe this is a development in the last few years--this definitely wasn't the case 5ish years ago.

Re: Driverless semis have started running regular longhaul routes

#360

Post by hermitShell » Wed, May 07, 2025, 1:51 PM UTC

voidspark wrote: post #265

hermitShell wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t it be great to enable electric cars to go long distances with platoons? Like a bus system for electric cars to go between cities and charge while you drive. The ‘bus’ is basically a big efficient generator that can charge up the cars behind it. A lot like mid flight refueling for fighter jets.

Generator powered by what? If its a diesel powered generator, that's even less efficient and more polluting than just using diesel trucks in the first place.

As I understand the benefits of electric cars themselves, the burning of hydrocarbons at scale is more efficient than piecemeal. So if the ‘bus’ contained a turbine, there would probably be net benefit. Or a nuclear bus!

Plus, even if it’s equal to the present state of affairs, we need a practical road to electrification of transport. I’m sure there are many cheaper options, it’s just fun to think about the infrastructure options.