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On loyalty to your employer (2018)

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Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#351

Post by usrusr »

jjmarr wrote: post #267
swatcoder wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that the benefits of loyalty vary with the size of the organization and the number peers your name gets lost among in the org chart. The larger the company, and the more they're ballooned out with abstract drones chomping on abstract work items, the more loyalty becomes a means for abuse. Turnover is rampant and their processes are built to optimally accommodate it. They're egregores, not people, and the…

My parents told me to be loyal to people , not companies . People get me a job when I look for one.

Only in moderation. When employees start forming cells inside the org things quickly become toxic.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#352

Post by sanderjd »

tart-lemonade wrote: post #224
sanderjd wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to what others have said about loyalty to the people who happen to work at a company, which I agree with entirely: I think it's good to have admiration for the company (or any organization) you work for. If you can't find anything you admire, it might be better to find another place to work where you can. This implies having the privilege of having options. For me, it's probably the primary reason I try t…

Being able to take pride in your work also helps a lot. In academia, my work may not be the most well compensated (it's perfectly reasonable for the area but I'm not going to be retiring early), but it is modern software that meaningfully helps others at my institution and doesn't actively make society worse.

Yes. This is very closely tied into the ability to admire the organization, at least for me. It's very hard for me to take pride in my work for an organization I think is bad.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#353

Post by nemomarx »

conductr wrote: post #334

I'm a mid-career executive that has earned more money from perks related to joining new companies (bonuses, stock, etc) than I have in salary & annual bonus programs; which would be my main compensation if I stayed long-term at a company. I simply don't see an economic incentive to loyalty with a sole exception; I'm currently working through a retention bonus period. I actually just signed it a month ago and will be…

it seems silly to be that companies will budget for new hires more than they budget for retention incentives. I'm sure they have measured which one pays off better but it feels backwards

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#354

Post by Apocryphon »

542354234235 wrote: post #265
Apocryphon wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This soullessness wasn't always the case. Prior to the cost-cutting minmaxing of Jack Welch's industries -influential tenure as CEO of General Electric, corporate America wasn't quite so brazen about layoffs, because they weren't viewed as a way to maximize shareholder returns- and shareholder value wasn't viewed as the only priority for corporate leaders. (He also introduced what would later become stack ranking at…

But also there were actual benefits to loyalty that don’t exist anymore. Labor union participation was huge in the post WWII, pre-Welch time frame. They used that leverage to negotiate benefits, many of which rewarded loyalty. Pension plans vs 401ks, significant pay raises based on seniority, clear paths to promotion, job security prioritizing senior workers, etc. Those things permeated through job markets and compan…

Yeah, there's certainly been a steady erosion of labor benefits in the postwar. To dial back my own great man theory a bit, Welch was active in the '80s when Reagan and Thatcher were in power, and those "great men" were also operating in a milieu where the Chicago Boys were very influential, and they had the political mandate to institute management-favoring policies thanks to economic crises of the '70s.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#355

Post by goostavos »

rckt wrote: post #103

I got it pretty early in my career that loyalty for a company is concept to make you work harder without asking anything in return. And the moment the company shifts focus and you are out of it, then suddenly you understand that this loyalty wasn't kind of a credits account which you've been saving all this time. It's simply nothing. You are on your own and can fuck off. So there's simply no place for loyalty in empl…

I similarly got this lesson early in my career. One of my first jobs. I was young and excited to be at a startup. Learning a ton. I poured hours into that job. Then, one day we were pulled onto a call, told they couldn't afford us any more, and fired on the spot. We were immediately locked out of everything and that was that.

It was shocking at the time. To young me, it was a big "....oh" kind of realization about what kind of relationship you can/should have with any kind of business.

Now, I'm here cause you pay me. I don't keep stuff at my desk or decorate 'my' space. I show up, do the job, and leave. Once I close this laptop, work is dead to me until the next day.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't occasionally work more than 40hr/week, but most of the time my work/life balance is fantastic by choice.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#356

Post by neilv »

Some people need to be told not to have loyalty to the company. Such as when the company is screwing them (which might or might not be necessary). Or when you can tell just by talking with the leadership that they will screw the employees. Decent people at such companies need to extricate themselves.

But other people need to be told not to be toxic baby diaper loads. People exhibiting the same kinds of thinking as the leadership in those other companies.

I've seen companies show a degree of loyalty to people, and much more of that from managers and teammates. In that environment, someone coming in and priding themself on their savvy at thinking this is all purely transactional-- that person is going to be toxic, if they don't quickly realize their misconception, and join the others more cooperatively.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#357

Post by mystified5016 »

jp57 wrote: post #212

I find it interesting how starkly bimodal attitudes toward employer loyalty are. There is a middle ground between getting a company logo tattoo on one hand and on the other being a clock puncher, who fulfills the minimum job requirements and begrudges any request to put in extra effort. It's possible, even admirable, to be diligent and take pride in one's work for reasons other than drinking the company kool-aid. It'…

By default I give loyalty and dedication to my employer until and unless my trust and respect are broken. I'm one of those engineers that will happily give 115% for extended periods, but only if I feel I'm being treated fairly and with the respect my abilities and position deserve.

Once that social contract is broken, I'm just a clock puncher until I find a new job. If my employer doesn't appreciate the amount and quality of my work, I'll just find someone who will.

I don't think my standards here are particularly high, but I've never worked anywhere that didn't wind up treating me like trash after a year or two. I guess they just take me for granted after a while and assume I'll never quit. I dunno, I can't make sense of it.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#358

Post by conductr »

nemomarx wrote: post #353
conductr wrote: post #334

I'm a mid-career executive that has earned more money from perks related to joining new companies (bonuses, stock, etc) than I have in salary & annual bonus programs; which would be my main compensation if I stayed long-term at a company. I simply don't see an economic incentive to loyalty with a sole exception; I'm currently working through a retention bonus period. I actually just signed it a month ago and will be…

it seems silly to be that companies will budget for new hires more than they budget for retention incentives. I'm sure they have measured which one pays off better but it feels backwards

The best retention incentive is paying good people well to begin with. And, it doesn't have to be huge. Paying people 10% above market when you know they are a strong asset defends you from that person ever wanting to leave. [Aside - but, Budget's should be offensive versus defensive so the whole retention bonus strategy should be an exception (unplanned) in my opinion. Granted that's from an operational view. From a cash flow planning view, the CFO knows it's going to spend money somewhere and probably needs to account for that somehow in their financial plan, but it's best to keep it out functional budget - otherwise department heads will be tempted to spend it, or repurpose it on something else.]

Instead, companies try to hire people 10% below market, end up passing on high quality talent that knows their worth, and obtaining talent that is effectively only delivering 70% or less than the high performer would. A lot of companies rely on HR or recruiters to do the initial 'expectation within budget' screen, so the hiring managers never even see the talent that gets turned away or disinterested by a potentially small budget discrepancy. Also, budgets almost always have exceptions especially for outstanding talent that may come along so really think this is unnecessary sacrifice.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#359

Post by seer »

rckt wrote: post #103

I got it pretty early in my career that loyalty for a company is concept to make you work harder without asking anything in return. And the moment the company shifts focus and you are out of it, then suddenly you understand that this loyalty wasn't kind of a credits account which you've been saving all this time. It's simply nothing. You are on your own and can fuck off. So there's simply no place for loyalty in empl…

If your loyalty is to your team / admin people, it could be quite profitable.

Plenty of examples of people (me included) that when their superior changes projects or leaves the company etc, they know and trust you and they want to move you with them.

I for example managed to switch from a dull team that drove me to almost the verge of quitting to a very exciting skunkworks team that I had a blast working in for almost 2 years, let alone doubling my compensation.

That happened because I was loyal to my SEM, in the sense of giving extra time if he was on the line, giving honest feedback and generally trying to make them “succeed”, the moment a risky and important project was on the table at the org he was like - “let’s organize a crack team” and invited me on board … and it was such a cool experience.

“The company” itself doesn’t “feel” anything towards the people working for it, it’s the people behind it that are influenced by such things.

The best orgs would have those personal loyalties also align with the orgs mission, but they are still personal - given from humans to humans.

Of course there is a fine line in “being a good resource” and “sucking up”, but good managers usually know the difference.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#360

Post by stego-tech »

Apocryphon wrote: post #181
stego-tech wrote: post #109

I think we lost something important when company loyalty was thrown aside in favor of the present "every person for themselves" attitudes. We lost long-term planning. When companies and employees both view their relationship as inherently limited to just a few years before one or the other tires of them and trades in for a new model, we lose the ability to envision a real, tangible future for the organization. We sto…

> We lost long-term planning. When companies and employees both view their relationship as inherently limited to just a few years before one or the other tires of them and trades in for a new model, we lose the ability to envision a real, tangible future for the organization. Yeah, and there is an actual historical moment and culprit to pin this on: https://www.npr.org/2022/06/01/1101505691/short-term-profits...

YEP. No joke, when I started making this observation in organizations I worked at over a decade ago, that name was the one that started me down a rabbit hole of learning, reading, and discovery.

Every era has a Jack Welch, but ours was particularly awful.

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