Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The hidden cost of AI coding

terriblesoftware.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

351–360 of 475 posts

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#351

Post by skydhash »

simonw wrote: post #16
SkyBelow wrote: post #10

So if I'm understanding this, there are two central arguments being made here. 1. AI Coding leads to a lack of flow. 2. A lack of flow leads to a lack of joy. Personally, I can't find myself agreeing with the first argument. Flow happens for me when I use AI. It wouldn't surprise me if this differed developer to developer. Or maybe it is the size of requests I'm making, as mine tend to be on the smaller size where I…

One trend I've been finding interesting over the past year is that a lot of engineers I know who moved into engineering management are writing code again - because LLMs mean they can get something productive done in a couple of hours where previously it would have taken them a full day. Managers usually can't carve out a full day - but a couple of hours is manageable. See also this quote from Gergely Orosz: Despite b…

> a lot of engineers I know who moved into engineering management are writing code again

They should be managing instead. Not to say that they can't code their own tools, but the statement sounds like a construction supervisor nailing studs or welding steel bars. Can work for a small team, but that's not your primary job.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#352

Post by CopyOnWrite »

CrimsonRain wrote: post #336
CopyOnWrite wrote: post #285

Most comments here surprise me: I am using Githubs Copilot / ChatGPT 4.0 at work with a code base which is mostly implements a basic CRUD service... and outside of small/trivial example (where the generated code is mostly okay), prompting is more often than not a total waste of time. Now, I wonder if I am just totally unable to write/refine good prompts for the LLM (as it works for smaller samples, I hope I am not to…

You are just bad with prompting or working with very obscure language/framework or bad coding pattern or all of it. I had a talk with a seasoned engineer who has been coding for 50 years and has created many amazing things over lifetime about him having really bad results with AI tools I suggested for him. When I use AI for the same purposes in the same repo he's working on, it works nicely. When he does it, results…

I do not rule out, that I am just very bad with prompting.

It just surprises me, that you write you had massive successes with "java, js/TS, html css, go, rust, python, bitbucket pipelines/GitHub actions, cdk, docker compose, SQL, flutter/dart, swift etc.", if you include the usual libraries/frameworks and the diverse application areas for these technologies, even with LLMs support it seems to me crazy to be able to make meaningful contributions in non trivial code bases.

Concerning SQL I can report another fail with LLMs, in a trivial code base with a handful of entities the LLM cannot come up with basic window functions.

I would be very interested if you could write up a blog post or could make a youtube video demonstrating your prompting skills... Perhaps demonstrating with a bigger open source project in any of the mentioned languages how to add a non trivial feature with your prompting skills?

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#353

Post by simonw »

skydhash wrote: post #234
danielbln wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone works in a single language and/or deep in some singular code base.

I struggle to think how one person is supposed to interact with that many languages on a daily (or even weekly) basis. I’ve been on projects with multiple languages, but the truly active code was done in only two. The other languages were used in completed modules where we do routine maintenance and rare alterations.

"I struggle to think how one person is supposed to interact with that many languages on a daily (or even weekly) basis."

LLMs. I've expanded the circle of languages I use on a frequent basis quite dramatically since I started leaning on LLMs more. I used to be Python, SQL and JavaScript only. These days I'm using jq, AppleScript, Bash, Go, awk, sed, ffmpeg and so many more.

I used to avoid infrequently used DSLs because I couldn't hold them in my memory. Now I'll happily use "the best tool for the job" without worrying about spinning up on all the details first.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#354

Post by simonw »

7589447636 wrote: post #320
hermanradtke wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are bad places to work. There are also places that require detailed time tracking, do not allow any time to write tests, have very long hours, tons of on-call alerts, etc.

How long until it becomes the rule because of some arbitrary "productivity" metric? Sure, you may not be forced to use it, but you'll be fire for being "unproductive".

That's the case at Shopify already: https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1909251946235437514

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#355

Post by douglasisshiny »

CrimsonRain wrote: post #336
CopyOnWrite wrote: post #285

Most comments here surprise me: I am using Githubs Copilot / ChatGPT 4.0 at work with a code base which is mostly implements a basic CRUD service... and outside of small/trivial example (where the generated code is mostly okay), prompting is more often than not a total waste of time. Now, I wonder if I am just totally unable to write/refine good prompts for the LLM (as it works for smaller samples, I hope I am not to…

You are just bad with prompting or working with very obscure language/framework or bad coding pattern or all of it. I had a talk with a seasoned engineer who has been coding for 50 years and has created many amazing things over lifetime about him having really bad results with AI tools I suggested for him. When I use AI for the same purposes in the same repo he's working on, it works nicely. When he does it, results…

I've had the same experience as the person to whom you're responding. After reading your post, I have to ask: if you're putting so much effort into prompting it with specific points, correcting it often, etc., why not just write the code yourself? It sounds like you're putting a good deal of effort into prompting it.

Aren't you worried that overtime you'll rely on it too much and your offhand knowledge will get worse?

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#356

Post by e40 »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #281
clbrmbr wrote: post #204

I have actually had some really great flow evenings lately, the likes of which I have not enjoyed in many years, precisely because of AI-assisted coding. The trick is to break the task down in to components that are of moderate complexity so that the AI can handle them (Gemini 2.5 Pro one-shots), and keep your mind on the high-level design which today's AI cannot coordinate. What helps me is to think of it like I'm a…

I'm a classic engineer, so lots of experience with systems and breaking down problems, but probably Having LLMs like 2.5 now are total game changers. I can basically flow chart a program and have Gemini manifest it. I can break up the program into modules and keep spinning up new instances when context gets too full. The program I am currently working on is up to ~5500 LOC, probably across 10ish 2.5 instances. It's b…

I've heard a _lot_ of stories like this. What I haven't heard is stories about the deployment of said applications and the ability of the human-side author to maintain the application. I guess that's because we're in early days for LLM coding, or the people who did this aren't talking (about their presumed failures... people tend to talk about successes publicly, not the failures).

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#357

Post by 91bananas »

wolvesechoes wrote: post #278
clbrmbr wrote: post #204

I have actually had some really great flow evenings lately, the likes of which I have not enjoyed in many years, precisely because of AI-assisted coding. The trick is to break the task down in to components that are of moderate complexity so that the AI can handle them (Gemini 2.5 Pro one-shots), and keep your mind on the high-level design which today's AI cannot coordinate. What helps me is to think of it like I'm a…

I always wonder what kind of projects are we talking about. I am currently writing a compiler and simulation engine for differential-algebraic equations. I tried few models, hoping they would help me, but they could not provide any help with small details nor with bigger building blocks. I guess if you code stuff that had been coded a lot in public repos, it is fine, otherwise AI does not help in any way. Actually, I…

For me it's been toy games built on web languages, which happens to be something I toyed with via my actual raw skills for the past 15 years. LLMs have opened many new doors and options for what I can build because I now technically "know everything" in the world via LLMs. Stuff that I would get stuck wasting hours on is now solved in minutes. But then it ALWAYS reaches a point where the complexity the LLM has generated is too much and the model can no longer iterate on what it's built.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#358

Post by pixl97 »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #335
elliotbnvl wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do get to claim that you’re a good getting-places-er, though, which is the only point of commercial programming.

Project Managers will tell you that "getting to a place" is the goal Then you get to the place and they say "now load all of the things in the garage into the truck" But oops. You didn't bring a truck, because all they told you was "please be at this address at this time", with no mention of needing a truck My point is that the purpose of commercial programming is not usually just to get to the goal Often the purpose…

I work with quite a few F100 companies. The actual amount of software most of them create is staggering. Tens of thousands of different applications. Most of it is low throughput and used by a small number of employees for a specific purpose with otherwise low impact to the business. This kind of stuff has been vibe coded long before there was AI around to do it for you.

At the same time human ran 'feature' applications like you're talking about often suffer from "let the programmer figure it out" problems where different teams start doing their own things.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#359

Post by mythrwy »

ang_cire wrote: post #133

This comment section really shows the stark divide between people who love coding and thus hate AI, and people who hate coding and thus love AI. Honestly, I suspect the people who would prefer to have someone or something else do their coding, are probably the devs who are already outputting the worst code right now.

I love coding and don't love questioning AI and checking responses.

But the simple fact is I'm much more productive with AI and I believe this is likely true for most programmers once they get adjusted.

So for production, what I love the most doesn't really matter, otherwise I'd be growing tomatoes and guiding river rafting expeditions. I'm resigned to the fact the age of manually writing "for loops" is largely over, at least in my case.

Re: The hidden cost of AI coding

#360

Post by CopyOnWrite »

douglasisshiny wrote: post #355
CrimsonRain wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are just bad with prompting or working with very obscure language/framework or bad coding pattern or all of it. I had a talk with a seasoned engineer who has been coding for 50 years and has created many amazing things over lifetime about him having really bad results with AI tools I suggested for him. When I use AI for the same purposes in the same repo he's working on, it works nicely. When he does it, results…

I've had the same experience as the person to whom you're responding. After reading your post, I have to ask: if you're putting so much effort into prompting it with specific points, correcting it often, etc., why not just write the code yourself? It sounds like you're putting a good deal of effort into prompting it. Aren't you worried that overtime you'll rely on it too much and your offhand knowledge will get worse…

I have read somewhere, that LLMs are mostly helpful to junior developers.

Is it possible the person claiming success with all these languages/tools/technologies is just on a junior level and is subjectively correct but has no point of reference how fast coding is for seniors and how quality code looks like?

Post reply on HN