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Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

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Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#351
post #228

I can hardly see the point for devices like this. If you are tech-savvy enough to host your own NAS locally, you might as well build your own NAS and install whatever user-friendly OS (Unraid, OpenMediaVault as an example) you wish. No vendor-lock in whatsoever that way. If you arent tech savvy enough, then you should probably use cloud storage anyway.

Getting a machine and setting it up for local usage as storage accessible over your home network is very different from having to install bunch of duct taped software and hoping it reliably works all the time without fail are two very different things.

I'm a full time dev and even having my home assistant breaking every time I think of upgrading it, is annoyance enough. My home lights and what not are down for two hours and I'm mostly installing HA from scratch and recovering from the backup that I've started to take since the last collapse.

A NAS is a way more critical device and I don't want to lose my data or needing to spend 2 weeks recovering data under an anxiety attack because I hastily did one upgrade.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#352
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To expand on this with an example. Adding a new device we'll call sdz to an existing Logical Volume Manager (LVM) Volume Group (VG) called "NAS" such that all the space on sdz is instantly available for adding to any Logical Volume (LV): pvcreate /dev/sdz vgextend NAS /dev/sdz Now we want to add additional space to an existing LV "backup": lvextend --size +128G --resizefs NAS/backup *note: --resizefs only works for f…

How are redundancy and drive failure handled? The only capacity mix-and-match scheme I have familiarity with is btrfs.

Synology SHR is btrfs (or ext4) on top of LVM and MD. MD is used for redundancy. LVM is used to aggregate multiple MD arrays into a volume group and to allow creating one or move volumes from that volume group.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#353
post #204

As someone who was in the marekt for getting a Synology, this has moved Synology onto my "do not trust and avoid"-list. It is very hard to get of that list and I will warn everybody wbo asks me about tech advice (so literally everybody in my vicinity) about vendors on that list. Good luck Synology.

The thing is they dont care about you anymore. They have moved firmly into the SME market which is why they are making decisions which dont really affect company purchase policies, but really upset personal users.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, seems like they got roughly one hardware sale to him every 6 years or so. Which is along the same trend line I'm seeing for my purchases. That's pretty solid for hardware sales. My guess is that they've over invested in things like their "drive" office software suite, and don't know how to monetize it or recoup costs. I like Synology, but locking me to their drives is a hard "no thanks" from me. Next NAS wo…

Every six years is enough for apple and other companies who have other sources of revenue and have staked out this high quality niche. But androids, as an example, are more of an average 3 year lifespan if I'm not mistaken, which is closer to what Synology would probably want to achieve but cannot.

The comparison to phones is shaky here. Phones bring substantial performance and feature improvements over 6 years, HW and SW. Synology on the other hand still uses a 5-6 year old CPU and 1Gbps connectivity in their home "plus" line. The OS development is mostly security updates with substantial feature releases few and far between. I expect this from a NAS but it's not at all comparable to a phone.

Forcing their drives is a tax on top of an already existing tax. Synology already charges a premium for lower end specs than the competition. If that's not enough to compensate for the longer upgrade cycles, and they want a hand in every cookie jar it's just going to be a hard pass for me.

I upgraded my Synology box every few years and this is exactly the time I was looking to go to the next model. And I'd pull the trigger and buy a current model before they implement the policy but the problem is now I don't trust that they won't retroactively issue an update that cripples existing models somehow. QNAP or the many alternative HW manufacturers that support an arbitrary OS are starting to be that much more attractive.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#355
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is partly why SSDs just lie nowadays and tell you they only have 75-90% of the capacity that is actually built into them. You can't directly access that excess capacity but the drive controller can when it needs to (primarily to extend the life of the drive). Some filesystems do stake out a reservation but I don't think any claim one as large as 5% (not counting the effect of fixed-size reservations on very smal…

> sare capacity and the impact of (not) keeping it open is more about relative than absolute sizes I don't think this is correct. At least btrfs works with slabs in the 1 GB range IIRC. One of my current filesystmes is upwards of 20 TB. Reserving 5% of that would mean reserving 1 TB. I'll likely double it in the near future, at which point it would mean reserving 2 TB. At least for my use case those numbers are compl…

We're not talking about optical discs or backup tapes which usually get written in full in a single session. Hard drive storage in general use is constantly changing.

As such, fragmentation is always there; absolute disk sizes don't change the propensity for typical workloads to produce fragmentation. A modern file system is not merely a bucket of files, it is a database that manages directories, metadata, files, and free space. If you mix small and large directories, small and large files, creation and deletion of files, appending to or truncating from existing files, etc., you will get fragmentation. When you get close to full, everything gets slower. Files written early in the volume's life and which haven't been altered may remain fast to access, but creating new files will be slower, and reading those files afterward will be slower too. Large directories follow the same rules as larger files, they can easily get fragmented (or, if they must be kept compact, then there will be time spent on defragmentation). If your free space is spread across the volume in small chunks, and at 95% full it almost certainly will be, then the fact that the sum of it is 1 TB confers no benefit by dint of absolute size.

Even if you had SSDs accessed with NVMe, fragmentation would still be an issue, since the file system must still store lists or trees of all the fragments, and accessing those data structures still takes more time as they grow. But most NAS setups are still using conventional spinning-platter hard drives, where the effects of fragmentation are massively amplified. A 7200 RPM drive takes 8.33 ms to complete one rotation. No improvements in technology have any effect on this number (though there used to be faster-spinning drives on the market). The denser storage of modern drives improves throughput when reading sequential data, but not random seek times. Fragmentation increases the frequency of random seeks relative to sequential access. Capacity issues tend to manifest as performance cliffs, whereby operations which used to take e.g. 5 ms suddenly take 500 or 5000. Everything can seem fine one day and then not the next, or fine on some operations but terrible on others.

Of course, you should be free to (ab)use the things you own as much as you wish. But make no mistake, 5% free is deep into abuse territory.

Also, as a bit of an aside, a 20 TB volume split into 1 GB slabs means there's 20,000 slabs. That's about the same as the number of 512-byte sectors in a 10 MB hard drive, which was the size of the first commercially available consumer hard drive for the IBM PC in the late 1980s. That's just a coincidence of course, but I find it funny that the numbers are so close.

Now, I assume the slabs are allocated from the start of the volume forward, which means external slab fragmentation is nonexistent (unless slabs can also be freed). But unless you plan to create no more than 20,000 files, each exactly 1 GB in size, in the root directory only, and never change anything on the volume ever again, then internal slab fragmentation will occur all the same.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll find that the word "find" doesn't mean "has to search", like one can find their nose in the middle of their face, if one desires. Change the word to "seek" and it may make more sense.

It makes more sense but it's not true for the modern CoW filesystems that I'm familiar with. Those allocate free space in slabs that they write to sequentially.

If you delete files, or append to existing files, then the promises of the initial allocation strategy go out the window.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not automatically applying firmware updates to 3rd-party drives is reasonable. Disabling filesystem features when using them is insane. Whats next — no encryption if you're using a Seagate?

It sounds like deduplication is already a pretty advanced feature requiring Synology SSD's: https://kb.synology.com/en-me/DSM/help/DSM/StorageManager/vo... It might be more about performance, that they'll require their own drives with custom firmware that works better? That's what I'm trying to understand here. Is Synology really removing important basic necessary features, or is this more about high-end consistency…

The former. They say it’s the latter but almost no one else in the space makes those goofy claims. If I buy an SSD that's too slow, that's on me. And if I deliberately buy a slower one because the cost:performance ratio is better for my needs, then that's my choice. There’s no technical reason why their rebranded devices should capable of doing things the competition can't, other than low-level things like installing firmware updates.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#358
post #242
post #183

There is one argument for Synology doing this: There have been cases where hard drive companies mislead their customers. I personally fell victim to this when Western Digital started selling SMR drives as WD Red, without labelling them as SMR drives. So lots of customers thought they were buying a drive that's perfect for NAS, only to discover that the drives were completely unsuitable and took days to restore, or fa…

I have a mix of SMR and CMR drives in my NAS and it works perfectly (on mdadm). I understand ZFS hates it but what is the problem on Synology?

My rough understanding is an SMR drive has a small section that's CMR and where the data goes when you do a write. Then when the drive is idle it moves the data to SMR because SMR writes are slow. If you fill up the small CMR section it starts writing directly to SMR and you see a huge performance loss. Without adaptation for SMR drives a lot of systems recognized this slowdown as a failure and would hault a restore. Even with that corrected for now you are looking at 10x the rebuild time of a CMR drive which increases the odds of another drive failing during the rebuild.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#359
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WD Red Plus -> CMR technnology, suitable for NAS WD Red -> SMR technology, slightly cheaper, not suitable for NAS

…but still marketed for NAS users, alas.

I should have been more specific: not suitable for RAID NAS

RAID and NAS used to go together when drive capacities were lower. E.g. I had a 9TB NAS with RAID5 at times when 8TB drives were >$500 a pop. These days, NAS does not necessarily imply having a RAID setup. I see a new "build your SFF/RPi NAS" article every week, and it rarely involves RAID.

This is because a NAS setup with a single high-capacity drive and an online backup subscription (e.g. Backblaze) is more cost-effective and perfectly adequate for a lot of users, who have no interest in playing the sysadmin. In such a setup, you just need a drive that can withstand continuous operation, and SMR should work fine.

Re: Synology Lost the Plot with Hard Drive Locking Move

#360
Realistically, this will be par for the course among NAS vendors in 10 years, and there will be vigorous defenses of it on Hackernews. "If you want an open NAS, build one yourself. I choose a Yoyodyne NAS because it integrates with the apps I use. And the Yoyodyne disk restriction is no big deal since I know I'll be using something supported and compatible."

Any asshole thing a company does, provided they remain solvent enough to stick to their guns for enough time, becomes an accepted industry practice. BonziBuddy generated outrage back in the day because it was spyware. Now Microsoft builds BonziBuddy tech right into Windows, and people -- professional devs, even -- are like "Yeah, I don't understand why anyone would want the hassle of desktop Linux when there's WSL2."

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