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How University Students Use Claude

anthropic.com

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Re: How University Students Use Claude

#351

Post by djmips »

nneonneo wrote: post #335
_tom_ wrote: post #321

No one seems to be talking about the fact that we need to change the definition of cheating. People's careers are going to be filled with AI. College needs to prepare them for that reality, not to get jobs that are now extinct. If they are never going to have to program without AI, what's the point in teaching them to do it? It's like expecting them to do arithmetic by hand. No one does. For every class, teachers nee…

That's brilliant! I mean, arithmetic is the same way, right? Nobody should do the arithmetic by hand, as you say. Kindergarten teachers really ought to just hand their kids calculators, tell them they should push these buttons like this, and write down the answers. No need to teach them how to do routine arithmetics like 3+4 when a calculator can do it for them.

I'm not sure you aren't being a little bit sarcastic but essentially that's true.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#352

Post by chrz »

globnomulous wrote: post #333
bko wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When modern search became more available, a lot of people said there's no point of rote memorization as you can just do a Google search. That's more or less accepted today. Whenever we have a new technology there's a response "why do I need to learn X if I can always do Y", and more or less, it has proven true, although not immediately. For instance, I'm not too concerned about my child's ability to write very legibl…

> When modern search became more available, a lot of people said there's no point of rote memorization as you can just do a Google search. That's more or less accepted today. It absolutely isn't.

My memory got worse, and google search got bad and now I cant find anything

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#353

Post by nazgul17 »

smrxx wrote: post #337

I want to take an exception to the term cheat. Because it is only cheating the student in the end. I didn’t learn my times tables in elementary school. Sure, I can work out the answer to any multiplication problem, but that’s the point, I have to work it out. This slows me down compared to others who learned the patterns, where they can do the multiplication in their fast automatic cognitive system and possibly the d…

The problem is, everybody does that, and it lowers the bar. From a societal perspective, we will have a set of people who are less prepared for their jobs, which will cost companies, and the economy at large, and so me and you. This will be a real problem for as long as AIs can't do the actual job but only the college easy version.

As a society, we should mandate universities to calculate the full score of a course based solely on oral or pen and paper exams, or computer exams only under strict supervision (eg share screen surveillance). Anything less is too easy to cheat.

And most crucially let go of this need to promote at least X% of the students: those who pass the bar should get the piece of paper that says they passed the bar, the others should not.

This is a serious problem.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#354

Post by kazinator »

foxglacier wrote: post #323
cellularmitosis wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just grade solely based on live performance? (quizzes and tests) Homework would still be assigned as a learning tool, but has no impact on your grade.

Because students wouldn't do the homework and would fail the quizzes. Students need to be pressured into learning and grades for doing the practice are a way. Don't pretend many students are self-motivated enough to follow the lecturer's instructions when there's no grade in it and insisting that "trust me, you won't learn if you don't do it".

Or, well, LLM wouldn't do the homework anymore --- which was the sought-after outcome.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#355

Post by suddenlybananas »

djmips wrote: post #351
nneonneo wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's brilliant! I mean, arithmetic is the same way, right? Nobody should do the arithmetic by hand, as you say. Kindergarten teachers really ought to just hand their kids calculators, tell them they should push these buttons like this, and write down the answers. No need to teach them how to do routine arithmetics like 3+4 when a calculator can do it for them.

I'm not sure you aren't being a little bit sarcastic but essentially that's true.

If kids don't go through the struggle of understanding arithmetic, higher math will be very very difficult. Just because you can use a calculator, doesn't mean that's the best way to learn. Likewise for using LLMs to program.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#356

Post by [deleted] »

_tom_ wrote: post #321

No one seems to be talking about the fact that we need to change the definition of cheating. People's careers are going to be filled with AI. College needs to prepare them for that reality, not to get jobs that are now extinct. If they are never going to have to program without AI, what's the point in teaching them to do it? It's like expecting them to do arithmetic by hand. No one does. For every class, teachers nee…

[deleted]

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#357

Post by boxed »

foxglacier wrote: post #323
cellularmitosis wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just grade solely based on live performance? (quizzes and tests) Homework would still be assigned as a learning tool, but has no impact on your grade.

Because students wouldn't do the homework and would fail the quizzes. Students need to be pressured into learning and grades for doing the practice are a way. Don't pretend many students are self-motivated enough to follow the lecturer's instructions when there's no grade in it and insisting that "trust me, you won't learn if you don't do it".

The pop quizzes being part of the grade was the entire point of the comment you replied to. I guess you misread?

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#358

Post by 9rx »

samuel wrote: post #349
enjo wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's literally "let me paste the assignment into ChatGPT and see what it spits out, change a few words and submit that". My wife is an accounting professor. For many years her battle was with students using Chegg and the like. They would submit roughly correct answers but because she would rotate the underlying numbers they would always be wrong in a provably cheating way. This made up 5-8% of her students. Now she…

I guess this students don't pass, do they? I don't think that's a particularly hard concern. It will take a bit more, but will learn the lesson (or drop out). I'm more worried about those who will learn to solve the problems with the help of an LLM, but can't do anything without one. Those will go under the radar, unnoticed, and the problem is, how bad is it, actually? I would say that a lot, but then I realize I'm p…

Back in my day they worried about kids not being able to solve problems without a calculator, because you won't always have a calculator in your pocket.

...But then.

Re: How University Students Use Claude

#360

Post by djmips »

suddenlybananas wrote: post #355
djmips wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you aren't being a little bit sarcastic but essentially that's true.

If kids don't go through the struggle of understanding arithmetic, higher math will be very very difficult. Just because you can use a calculator, doesn't mean that's the best way to learn . Likewise for using LLMs to program.

I have no anecdata to counter your thesis. I do agree that immersion in the doing of a thing is the best way to learn. I am not fully convinced that doing a lot of arithmetic hand calculation precludes learning the science of patterns that is mathematics. They should still be doing something mathematical but why not go right into using a calculator. I have no experience as an educator and I bet it's hard to get good data on this topic of debate. I could be very wrong.
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