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Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

cleantechnica.com

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Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#351

Post by mixermachine »

m463 wrote: post #193
mixermachine wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One can extract hydrogen from fossil fuels. So if a hydrogen break through is coming, they already have a cheap source for the material. Not really green though...

not really cheap either. I remember natural gas vehicles (busses and cars, like the honda civic). You could actually fill up at home if you had natural gas, but the electricity just to compress the natural gas for the car cost as much or more than the compressed fuel in the car. For hydrogen, it is even harder. take a look at cars running compressed hydrogen. I remember $17 for the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline.…

Most of the Hydrogen that is currently being produced is "gray". Meaning that it is produce with steam reforming from natural gas.

This is currently the cheapest and most used method (around 60%). Coal (around 20%) and oil (around 20%) are also used for hydrogen production.

Green hydrogen is below 1%.

So fossil fuels are still currently the cheapest option there. Just not a green one.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#352

Post by danaris »

pjscott wrote: post #136
neves wrote: post #125

Why? Because Oil Companies are lobbying for inefficient hydrogen to delay a green revolution: https://adamtooze.substack.com/p/carbon-notes-5-green-hydrog... > The members of the hydrogen coalition are all obviously incumbent fossil fuel and petrochemical interests looking for a bridge to the new era. If realized, their ambitious hydrogen projects may overload the available supply of green power, for little real bene…

Do you have actual knowledge of their motives? Or is this speculation, confidently stated as fact? Another possible motive, mentioned in the the paragraph you quote, is that the oil companies see an energy transition coming and are trying to get aboard the hydrogen train to diversify their future revenue sources. And that sounds like a reasonable motive; the sort of thing that people who don't see themselves as evil…

Given how hard and how long the fossil fuel industry has been fighting tooth and nail to suppress science, kill public and private projects, and fund bogus studies, all to avoid ever losing even a fraction of their ironclad control of the energy market, I think it's fair to deny them the benefit of the doubt at this point.

If they're saying or doing something that would stand in the way of or compete with the existing rise of renewable energy, even without any specific evidence, I believe it is fully justified to say they are doing it for selfish reasons that will harm literally every other human being on the planet.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#353

Post by tonyhart7 »

jimnotgym wrote: post #258
tonyhart7 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's why china is leading an EV revolution, government seeing that as very much important geopolitic and economic wise if hydrogen is feasible in mass scale, trust me someone in Asia would already make it

> if hydrogen is feasible in mass scale, trust me someone in Asia would already make it That is a ridiculous proposition. Electric vehicles themselves were being pushed hard around the world before China saw the way the wind was blowing and overtook it.

"That is a ridiculous proposition. Electric vehicles themselves were being pushed hard around the world before China"

I never said they are first, I said they lead at the EV industry and usage, the amount of resource and how people use EV is gargantuan even compared to the west

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#354

Post by xnx »

WalterBright wrote: post #38
xnx wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The electric airplane is another myth. Strong disagree. Short range eVTOL craft will blow open the market for all kinds of use cases.

I've heard that story for 40 years. Invest in it if you like. I'll pass.

eVOTL only started making sense when we got the battery power density and computer flight control systems available now.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#355

Post by alistairSH »

lostlogin wrote: post #272
xbmcuser wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current US administrations moves against renewables should make you realize how powerful the oil gas lobby is. They got some pushback from local politicians so were slowed down but the way they started they were looking to end all wind and solar for a false promise of nuclear tomorrow.

> The current US administrations moves against renewables It is promoting electric cars fairly forcefully.

Only Teslas.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#356

Post by 7952 »

sholladay wrote: post #214

They keep falling for it because fixed route busses are the one use case where hydrogen could theoretically make sense. The bus can fill up far faster than it could recharge an equivalent battery. The bus gets lighter and more efficient as it uses fuel. And crucially, it can always fill up at the same place, which really ought to be the central depot where all the buses in that network return to. But inevitably with…

Hydrogen would probably be delivered on a trailer and maybe hauled by an electric vehicle. Ultimately I think it makes more sense if hydrogen could be produced in a more distributed way.

Do you think it could be useful for farm or construction vehicles?

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#357

Post by paganel »

neves wrote: post #125

Why? Because Oil Companies are lobbying for inefficient hydrogen to delay a green revolution: https://adamtooze.substack.com/p/carbon-notes-5-green-hydrog... > The members of the hydrogen coalition are all obviously incumbent fossil fuel and petrochemical interests looking for a bridge to the new era. If realized, their ambitious hydrogen projects may overload the available supply of green power, for little real bene…

There's no "green revolution" coming, just the powers that be taxing us, normal citizens, to the hell and the back if we'd still want to hang on to our gasoline-powered cars, which taxing policies will for sure bring about the revolution of people choosing to not travel anymore, because too expensive. That's the revolution that they're now putting in place.

Also, bonus points to the "liberals" (including many of the techies in here) helping bring forward guys like Musk, they did that by purchasing and aggressively marketing for his vehicles, they've actually empowered him and brought him into his actual position of power.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#358

Post by m4rtink »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #310
im3w1l wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyota bet big on hydrogen.

Bet in the past tense? It seems they are moving further away from that position. There are also some domestic market issues for Toyota - Japan having the lowest voltage mains electricity in the world for example.

Isn't it the same as in US ? Eq. ~120V.

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#359

Post by iefbr14 »

adamanonymous wrote: post #138
why_at wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow I had no idea this existed >Disadvantages >Weight: a bus which can carry 20 persons and has a range of 2 km (1.2 mi) requires a flywheel weighing about 3 tons. >The flywheel, which turns at 3000 revolutions per minute, requires special attachment and security—because the external speed of the disk is 900 km/h (560 mph). It's truly a mystery why they never caught on

You missed the last and most funny one >Driving a gyrobus has the added complexity that the flywheel acts as a gyroscope that will resist changes in orientation, for example when a bus tilts while making a turn, assuming that the flywheel has a horizontal rotation axis. So you have a giant blender than can travel one mile in a straight line before needing to be recharged

There once was a train that made clever use of that effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_monorail

Re: Why do transit agencies keep falling for the hydrogen bus myth?

#360

Post by baq »

rocqua wrote: post #349
baq wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dollars are fake, or more accurately, a social construct, remember that. You can always tax the cheaper fuel and subsidize the more expensive one.

Dollar costs of physical things (pre tax) quite accurately measure how much effort it takes to produce/acquire that thing. Hydrogen being more expensive than X quite stronly suggests that it is much more effort to get than X.

I agree, that’s why I say tax the right things and subsidize the right things.
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