Live data from Hacker News

Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

defragzone.substack.com

351–360 of 886 posts

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#351

I have to disagree with this article. Companies as is, particularly larger companies have a lot of fluff. People who do about three or four hours of work a week, and effectively just sit around so senior management can claim they have so many people working on such and such project. With AI, you no longer need those employees to justify your high valuations. You don't need as many juniors. The party is over tell the…

People who look forward to retiring are like people who look forward to heaven: missing out on life due to the belief their “real” life hasn’t begun yet.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see that you deleted your previous response which was unnecessarily snarky while my question was genuine and simple I suppose. You edited your comment to clarify that you were asking from a place of ignorance as to the tools. Your original comment read as snarky and I responded accordingly, deleting it when I realized that you had changed yours. :) > How about ingesting the whole codebase into the model? I have s…

I don't think my comment read as snarky but I was surprised to see the immediate downvote which presumably came from you so I only added the last sentence. This is a stupid way of disagreeing and attempting to shut down the discussion without merits. > It doesn't work. Even the models that claim to have really large context windows get very distracted if you don't selectively pick relevant context. I thought Devon is…

> I don't think my comment read as snarky but I was surprised to see the immediate downvote which presumably came from you so I only added the last sentence.

I can't downvote you because you are downthread of me. HN shadow-disables downvotes on all child and grandchild comments.

I'm the one who upvoted you to counteract the downvote. :)

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#353

This article is entirely built on 2 big and wrong assumptions: 1. AI code ability will be the same as is today 2. Companies will replace people for AI en masse at a given moment in time Of course both these assumptions are wrong, the quality of code produced by AI will improve dramatically as model evolves. And is not even just the model itself. The tooling, the Agentic capabilities and workflow will entirely change…

[deleted]

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#355

If there will be actual AGI (or super intelligence), none of these arguments hold. The machines will just be better than any programmer money can buy. Of course at that point every knowledge worker is probably unemployable anyway.

This is like saying:

"If we just had a stable way to create net energy from a fusion reactor, we'd solve all energy problems".

Do we have a way to do that? No.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that LLMs are only going to make people with real tech/programming skills much more in demand, as younger programmers skip straight into prompt engineering and never develop themselves technically beyond the bare minimum needed to glue things together. The gap between people with deep, hands-on experience that understand how a computer works and prompt engineers will become so insanely deep. Somebody needs to…

Isn’t this kind of thing the story of tech though? Languages like Python and Java come around, and old-school C engineers grouse that the kids these days don’t really understand how things work, because they’re not managing memory. Modern web-dev comes around and now the old Java hands are annoyed that these new kids are just slamming NPM packages together and polyfills everywhere and no one understands Real Software…

I wonder about this too - and also wonder what the difference of order is between the historical shifts you mention and the one we're seeing now (or will see soon).

Is it 10 times the "abstracting away complexity and understanding"? 100, 1000, [...]?

This seems important.

There must be some threshold beyond which (assuming most new developers are learning using these tools) fundamental ability to understand how the machine works and thus ability to "dive in and figure things out" when something goes wrong is pretty much completely lost.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#357
post #333
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because there are these abstractions layers that happened in the past does not mean that it will continue to happen that way. For example, many no-code tools promised just that, but they never caught on. I believe that there's a "optimal" level of abstraction, which, for the web, seems to be something like the modern web stack of HTML, JavaScript and some server-side language like Python, Ruby, Java, JavaScript.…

I love that you brought no-code tools into this because I think it's interesting it never worked correctly. My guess is: on one side, things like squarespace and wix get super super good for building sites that don't feel like squarespace and wix, (I'm not sure I'd want to be a pure "website dev" right now - although I think squarespace squashed a lot of that long ago) - and then very very nice tooling for "real engi…

Excel is a "no-code" system and people seem to like it. Of course, sometimes it tampers with your data in horrifying ways because something you entered (or imported into the system from elsewhere) just happened to look kinda like a date, even though it was intended to be something completely different. So there's that.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#358
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zuckerberg, as always, is well known for making excellent business decisions that lead to greater sector buy in. The Metaverse is going great.

Really, that's what you're going with, arguing against the business acumen of the world's second richest person, and the only one at that scale with individual majority control over their company? As for the Metaverse, it was always intended as a very long-term play which is very early to be judged, but as an owner of a Quest headset, it's already going great for me.

Yes? I don't understand what is so outrageous about that. Most business decisions are not made by the CEO, and the ones we know are directly a result of him have been poor.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#359
How can this opion piece miss the big thing though? Even if it's an accurate prediction that will be someone else's problem. My last three companies have been Publicly traded, Private Equity, VC and PE. The timelines for decision makers in any of these scenarios maxes out around 4 years, and for some is less than a year. They're not shooting themselves in the foot, rather handicaping the business and moving on. The ones who time it right will have an extra-big payday, while the ones who do poorly will buy all these duds. Meanwhile the vast majority lose either way.

Re: Firing programmers for AI is a mistake

#360
Counterpoint: lots of software is relatively very simple at its core, so perhaps we don't need nearly as many employed developers as we have today. Alternatively, we have far more developers today, so perhaps companies are only firing to re-hire for lower salaries.

Regarding the first hypothesis: For example, one person can make a basic social media site in a weekend. It'll be missing important things from big social medias: 1) features (some of them small but difficult, like live video), 2) scalability, 3) reliability and security, and 4) non-technical aspects (promotion, moderation, legal, etc.). But 1) is optional; 2) is reduced if you use a managed service like AWS and throw enough compute at it, then perhaps you only need a few sysadmins; 3) is reduced to essentials (e.g. backups) if you accept frequent outages and leaks (immoral but those things don't seem to impact revenue much); and 4) is neither reducible nor optional but doesn't require developers.

I remember when the big tech companies of today were (at least advertised as) run by only a few developers. They were much smaller, but still global and handling $millions in revenue. Then they hired more developers, presumably to add more features and improving existing ones, to make profit and avoid being out-competed. And I do believe those developers made features and improvements to generate more revenue than their salaries and keep the companies above competition. But at this point, would more developers generate even more features and improvements to offset their cost, and are they necessary to avoid competition? Moreover, if a company were to fire most of its developers, keeping just enough to maintain the existing systems, and direct resources elsewhere (e.g. marketing), would they make more profit and out-compete better?

Related, everyone knows there's lots of products with needless complexity and "bullshit jobs". Exactly how much of that complexity is needless and how many of those jobs are useless is up to debate, and it may be less than we think, but it may really not.

I'm confident the LLMs that exist today can't replace developers, and I wouldn't be surprised if they don't "augment" developers so fewer developers + LLMs don't maintain the same productivity. But perhaps many programmers are being fired because many programmers just aren't necessary, and AI is just a placebo.

Regarding the second hypothesis: At the same time, there are many more developers today than there were 10-20 years ago. Which means that even if most programmers are necessary, companies may be firing them to re-hire later at lower salaries. Despite the long explanations above this may be the more likely outcome. Again, AI is just an excuse here, maybe not even an intentional one: companies fire developers because they believe AI can improve things, it doesn't, but then they're able to re-hire cheaper anyways.

(Granted, even if one or both the above hypotheses are true, I don't think it's hopeless for software developers. Specifically because, I believe many developers will have to find other work, but it will be interesting work; perhaps even involving programming, just not the kind you learned in college, and at minimum involving reasoning some of which you learn from development. The reason being that, while both are important to some extent, I believe "smart work" is generally far more important than "hard work". Especially today, it seems most of society's problems aren't because we don't have enough resources, but 1) because we don't have the logistics to distribute them, and 2) because of problems that aren't caused by lack of resources, but mental health (culture disagreements, employer/employee disagreements, social media toxicity, loneliness). Especially 2). Similarly to how people moved from manual labor to technical work, I think people will move from technical work; but not back to manual labor, to something else, perhaps something social.)

Post reply on HN