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Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

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Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#351

Post by danenania »

tantalor wrote: post #141
throwway120385 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even loo…

Right on red is (or should be) never allowed during a pedestrian scramble. That's just asking for trouble. The box must be entirely clear of cars during the walk signal.

Left turns on green (with no green arrow) are also pretty bad imo, as are right turns on green with no arrow. In both cases pedestrians are supposed to have right-of-way, but cars often don't respect it.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#352

Post by manwe150 »

vikingerik wrote: post #288
tanewishly wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that a right-turn can be green simultaneous with the pedestrian's crossing light being green? Because where I'm from, traffic lights are not allowed to be set up like that. No simultaneous green for crossing traffic flows, unless otherwise indicated (eg, an extra warning light+sign under the turn's traffic light flashing when it's green and off otherwise).

A car turning on a green light can be simultaneous with the pedestrian's crossing light being green. The driver is obligated to see the pedestrian and wait. What's not simultaneous is a green turn arrow with a green ped crossing. Intersections in the US are designed so that a green arrow will mean the driver has no conflicts and can proceed. Not everyone (both drivers and peds) understands that distinction.

I feel like I see a lot of fairly crazy intersections in my US city, where it feels like they break at least one expectation of the simple red/yellow/green patterns from drivers ed. I wouldn’t want to trust anyone’s life to assuming that a green arrow should mean I have the unconflicted right of way, let alone that others are even paying attention to their own signal

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#353

Post by mungoman2 »

runako wrote: post #62
mungoman2 wrote: post #8

This is an annoying change, but the cars in the video weren't actually running any red lights. Doesn't help the case to exaggerate.

https://imgur.com/a/ASSeakh

That triangle doesn't mark the stop line though, it's further back. If cars stopped at the triangle they would block pedestrians crossing the street.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#354

Post by manwe150 »

sumeno wrote: post #241
tanewishly wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that a right-turn can be green simultaneous with the pedestrian's crossing light being green? Because where I'm from, traffic lights are not allowed to be set up like that. No simultaneous green for crossing traffic flows, unless otherwise indicated (eg, an extra warning light+sign under the turn's traffic light flashing when it's green and off otherwise).

> Are you saying that a right-turn can be green simultaneous with the pedestrian's crossing light being green? I can't think of many places that I drive where this isn't the case. The pedestrian crossing lights are in sync with the traffic lights, if traffic going N/S is green then the pedestrian lights going N/S will also be green even if cars are turning E/W

I know at least one intersection that crosses a bike path and walking path near me that changed recents so now oncoming traffic goes with the walk signal while turns are forbidden, then only right turns are allowed, then only left turns. It takes slightly longer to go through the cycle (particularly on busy days where pedestrians don’t yield the street for people to turn), but otherwise makes it much less stressful to go through that intersection regardless of my mode of transit around it

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#355

Post by cge »

Spivak wrote: post #272
cge wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, that is both legal and standard practice in California, and at many intersections with traffic and no protected turn, is in practice the only possible way to turn left: there will simply never be a break in traffic, from the moment the light turns green until it turns red, and so without entering the intersection and then turning on red, it is simply not possible to turn left at all.

They even teach you to do this in driver's ed. I know HN skews "rules are rigid" but this one should be known by everyone.

In parts of Europe the practice itself is even rigid, with markings for where in the intersection your car is supposed to be while waiting to turn.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#356

Post by undersuit »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #348
grogenaut wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in seattle where people are pretty good about yielding. It's confusing as eff which lights and what times the peds are going to get a walk signal when I'm taking a right and when they're not. Some also go walk at the same time they go green for right turns. Some slightly delayed. It's hard to watch both lights as a driver and the oncomming traffic.

Rights on red are an inherently dangerous design flaw of North American traffic laws. It's not allowed in NYC and soon won't be allowed in DC and Atlanta.

Any time you grant vehicles a shared path with pedestrians is dangerous.

I was in the middle of a long line of cars taking a left from a left turn lane. The green arrow light turned to a yellow arrow light for a brief second before turning full green. I was at the front of the line at the time so I slowed down and waited for the car in front of me to clear the intersection before I turned so that I could see that there if was oncoming traffic who light just turned green. No oncoming traffic, start turning, notice when I'm way to far into the intersection that a pedestrian is trying to cross the 90 feet of crosswalk as well. I violate their right of way and get myself out of oncoming traffic lanes. In the rear view mirror I see the pedestrian waiting in the middle of the crosswalk for the rest of the line of traffic behind me to finish their left turns. The corner is a 120 degree turn, definitely my fault for not being aware of my surroundings but also... 120 degree turn on two 4 lane 40mph roads... the pedestrian needs a dedicated time to cross free of vehicles.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#357

Post by scotty79 »

Spivak wrote: post #204
the__alchemist wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this surprises you, consider the alternative: Driving through a yellow being illegal or unexpected doesn't make sense, given the finite stopping distance of cars, and reaction time of humans. This is because the yellow light is the first explicit indicator you must stop. If this doesn't make sense still, picture this scenario: You are driving at the speed limit. You are 500ms from crossing the stop line threshold.…

Yep, something something Chesterton's fence. If you couldn't drive through a yellow then you effectively have two lights go/stop which makes drivers choose between the safe but illegal thing of running the light or the dangerous but legal thing of slamming on their brakes. You can't have an instant switch between go/stop which yellow— effectively meaning unsafe stopping distance go, safe stopping distance stop— solve…

> effectively meaning unsafe stopping distance go, safe stopping distance stop— solves very neatly.

That's how it works in Poland and it works reasonably well.

On the other hand when light is about to turn green, yellow lights up. So red and yellow at the same time means prepare to go.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#358

Post by roguecoder »

JB_Dev wrote: post #125
potato3732842 wrote: post #25

As a pedestrian I will take a busy light controlled intersection with a pedestrian scramble type walk signal over a busy 4-way stop where every single time. With the 4-way stop there is never a time in the cycle when all traffic is stopped. The drivers who are present are continuously paying attention to what other drivers are doing which robs them of situational awareness to note pedestrians. You can try and time it…

Make it a roundabout with protected pedestrian crossings. That forces drivers to be looking at the conflict point with pedestrians as they manoeuvre the roundabout.

I was very impressed in Denmark, where that roundabout approach worked very well. Every car slowed down & stopped for me at the crosswalks.

It turned out that that was because they installed a cobblestone speed bump in front of every crosswalk. Cars slowed down even if no pedestrians were around, because otherwise they were going to pop a tire. It made walking so much safer than anywhere else I've been.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#360

Post by manwe150 »

gowld wrote: post #320
the__alchemist wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With this change to the scenario, being required to stop before yellow makes sense. And blowing through red means you extra screwed up! (?) On this note: In the UK, there is a yellow light prior to green; love it.

The US sometimes has something similar: visibile countdown timers for the pedestrian crossing turning form stop to go, which coincides with the car light turning from red/stop to green/go. This encourages people to run the light by trying to turn exactly as the countdown timer hits 0, trying to race against pedestrians trying to cross crossing pedestrians.

You could always do that before in most instances just by watching for the yellow on the cross street too. Though I think the green is often slightly delayed relative to the pedestrian light, precisely to ensure the car cannot win that race legally
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