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Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

quantamagazine.org

351–360 of 419 posts

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I respectfully, but strongly, disagree. There's a reason most NBA players are over 2 meters tall, and one does not become taller with time, dedication nor focus. Being tall isn't a skill. I suspect you could be skillful enough at basketball to overcome the hight disadvantage. However, I think most people who might become that skillful see the high disadvantage (plus the general difficulty of becoming a pro basketba…

Height is one physical attribute that helps, and professional players are mostly above average height for a reason. But also hand-eye coordination and fast-twitch muscles help even more. Many basketball players are very explosive athletes, because it's a sport with a relatively small play area and lots of quick movements are needed. Track and swimming are where innate physical attributes have the most obvious benefit…

> Most humans could not train to run under 4 minutes in a mile or under 2:30 in a marathon.

Of course, but I don't think anyone was seriously suggesting that. The vast majority of humans can become pretty good at swimming though. And that was my interpretation of the original claim about cognitive tasks, mathematics, etc.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Square roots are not some "mathematical trivia", they're amongst the most fundamental operations in mathematics.

In arithmetic. There is a lot more to math than arithmetic.

Square roots are fundamental to (real and complex) analysis and to algebra (in the study of polynomials), so the two major branches of modern mathematics.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit less than two

What about Frank Lentini ? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lentini

Seems like he has more than the average number of legs as well.

The fact that he has a wiki page, and that many folks with born without or who have lost legs (~500,000/year Americans experience limb loss or are born with a limb difference https://amputee-coalition.org/resources/limb-loss-statistics...) do not, suggest that the number of people with 2. So the average is still less than 2.

For better or worse, number of legs (or number of arms) is canonical example people use to demonstrate the statistical principal a significant majority of a population can be above average of some metric.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#354
post #44

I’m actually interested in the “can benefit from” claim in this title. I don’t particularly doubt that most people could become reasonably good at math, but I wonder how much of the juice is worth the squeeze, and how juicy it is on the scale from basic arithmetic up to the point where you’re reading papers by June Huh or Terry Tao. As anti-intellectual as it sounds, you could imagine someone asking, is it worth devo…

Pure math is probably not worth the squeeze. I think more important to everyday life is systems thinking and a bit of probability/stats, mainly bayesian updates. "Superforecasting" was an eye-opening book to me, I could see how most people would benefit massively by it. Similar to systems thinking, just the ability to play out scenarios in your head given a set of rules is a very useful skill, one which programmers t…

Abstract Algebra, Combinatorics, and Discrete Mathematics are all definitely worth the squeeze; and incidentally something that could easily be taught to middle- and high-schoolers with the right examples.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#355
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not really. There's nothing inherently special about people who dedicated enough time to learn a subject. "You didn't work hard enough." People really blame you for that, not for lacking talent. > So far in human history there were less than 200 people who ran 100m in less than 10s. And many millions have tried. There may be 200 people who can run it under 10s, but there are thousands that can run it under 11s, and…

I'm the author of what you've just described as clickbait. Interestingly, the 100m metaphor is extensively discussed in my book, where I explain why it should rather lead to the exact opposite of your conclusion. The situation with math isn't that there's a bunch of people who run under 10s. It's more like the best people run in 1 nanosecond, while the majority of the population never gets to the finish line. Highly-…

So, for starters: you don't have any evidence, if I understood it properly. None whatsoever. That's really not the basis for arguing "become 1000x better." If only because your operationalization is missing. If you can't measure someone math's skills, how can you say they can become 1000x better? I think the whole article manages not to even speak about what "math" actually is supposed to be. Symbol manipulation according to axioms?

Your starting point is the way elite mathematicians think about themselves. But people don't understand themselves. They don't understand their own motivations, their own capabilities, their own logic. You know who are best at explaining what/how other people think? Average people. Hence the success of mediocrity in certain types of quizzes and politics.

I'm sure you're right about the mixture of logic and intuition. I've had the thought myself, mainly about designing systems, but there is some analogy: you've got to "see through" the way from the top to the bottom, how it connects, and then fill the layers in between. But that intuition is about a very, very specific domain. And it's not given that is a priori equally distributed. More likely than not, it's isn't.

Your whole argument then is based in naive psychology. E.g., this

> What can someone gain by improving their mathematical thinking?

> Joy, clarity and self-confidence.

> Children do this all the time. That’s why they learn so fast.

Are there no other reasons children learn so fast? It's not even given that joy and clarity makes children learn faster. What is known is that children do learn fast under pressure. Have you seen the skills of child soldiers? It's amazing, but it comes of course at great cost. But they did learn. Children pick up languages at a relatively high speed (note: learning a new language is still very well possible at later ages, certainly until middle age), but that's got nothing to do with joy, clarity and self-confidence. They also do it under the dreariest of circumstances.

So I'd say: your argument, or at least the quanta article, is at odds with common sense, and with psychological research, and doesn't provide concrete evidence.

You might have ideas for teaching maths better. But beware there's a long tradition of people who've tried to improve the maths curriculum, and basically all failed.

I'll give you one more point for thought (if you ever read this): intuition can also be a negative. I've practiced with my daughter for her unprepared math exam (she dropped it at one point, and then wanted to have it on her grade list anyway). One thing that I clearly remember, and it's not just her, is that she had very weird ideas about the meaning of e.g. x, even in simple equations. They were nearly magical. It was hard to get her to treat x like she would treat any other term. At one point, she failed to see that e.g. 1/3 = x^-1 is easy to solve, even when she had written down 1/x = x^-1 right next to it. Her intuition blocked her logic. My conclusion is that it's certainly easy to frak up someone's understanding of maths, unless you're really teaching, tutoring and monitoring 1-on-1. There's no solution for maths but good teachers, and a lot of fast feedback. Quite an old lesson.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#356

To my mind, the premature formalization of the math is the principal contributor to gas lighting and alienation of people from maths. The reduction of concepts to symbols and manipulation thereof, is an afterthought. It's misguided for them to be introduced to people right at the outset. People need to speak in plain English [0]. To some mathematicians' assertion that English is not precise enough, I say, take a hike…

This sentiment comes up all the time here. Mathematics uses formalism because it's easier.

It's easier to read "a(b+c+d) = ab+ac+ad" than

> If there be two straight lines, and one of them be cut into any number of segments whatever, the rectangle contained by the two straight lines is equal to the rectangles contained by the uncut straight line and each of the segments.

It's well known that good notation is exactly the one that elevates good intuition. For example, the Legendre symbol has the property that (a/p)*(b/p)=(a*b/p), an important visual cue that you wouldn't get from writing down (in way too many words) what the Legendre symbol actually means.

Also, most actually good mathematical textbooks aren't just dumps of formulae and proofs and they do contain motivation, examples, pictures, etc. You're attacking a strawman. But you can't just relegate the formalism and proofs to the appendices, that's crazy.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#357

To my mind, the premature formalization of the math is the principal contributor to gas lighting and alienation of people from maths. The reduction of concepts to symbols and manipulation thereof, is an afterthought. It's misguided for them to be introduced to people right at the outset. People need to speak in plain English [0]. To some mathematicians' assertion that English is not precise enough, I say, take a hike…

Mathematics is the conversion of a large number of object languages in to a single meta language that lets us talk about all of them. The sin of modern mathematics is that it's meta language is so ill define that you need towers of software to manipulate it without contradiction. Rewriting all of it into s-expressions with a term rewriting system for proofs under a sequent calculus is an excellent first step to makin…

Weirdly enough, mathematicians have been manipulating expressions and writing proofs for centuries without (routinely) stumbling into contradictions all without the need of formal proof calculi or s-expressions.

I have nothing but admiration for projects like Lean and Coq and working in them can be a lot of fun (coupled with a lot of frustration when "obvious" things sometimes take an inordinate amount of time to prove), but Wiles' proof of FLT (the corrected version) was published in 1995. We're almost 30 years later and people are just now working on a formalisation which could take many years (https://leanprover-community.github.io/blog/posts/FLT-announ...). Mathematicians can't afford to be waiting for proof systems to catch up, at least not right now.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#358
post #69

I want to say yes, but I have two counters. One is that math nerds at school insisted on intimidating for the win and I just hated it. The second is notation. I had a snob teacher who insisted on using Newton not Leibniz and at school in the 1970s this is just fucked. One term of weirdness contradicting what everyone else in the field did. Likewise failure to explain notation, it's hazing behaviour. So yes, everyone…

The different notations in calculus are unfortunately a historical accident and you're going to see all of them if you do anything with it (it's certainly not true that everyone in the field uses the same notation). I agree that it's frustrating but so are irregular verbs in Spanish/French/other languages - you can't really change it.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to judge myself for not understanding everything in math articles on Wikipedia, but as time has gone on I've realized that their purpose isn't really to be an introduction , but a reference . Especially as the topics become more esoteric. So they're not really there for you to learn things from scratch, but for people who already understand them to look things up. Which is why you'll sometimes see random obscu…

I've heard that and I think it's silly. They handwave away why nothing should ever be explained. Wikipedia doesn't work like that for any other topic. You'll see something like a mathematical proof with no explanation and it's end of article. The edit history will have explanations aggressively removed. The equivalent would be the article for say, splay tree, to have no diagrams and just a block of code - feeling no…

I don't know anybody who first learns about new mathematical ideas from Wikipedia. Mathematics is a body of knowledge, not just simple isolated theorems or definitions. You learn new mathematics from textbooks.

Even for reference purposes there are often better resources. E.g. proofwiki is usually better for looking up proofs because the proofs and definitions are interconnected.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that "genius" is nature and not nurture? I'd love to see the evidence for this; i'm deeply skeptical. Edit: I don't mean to argue that there aren't genetics involved in determining aptitude on certain tasks, of course, but the assumption that genius is born and never made feels like a very shallow understanding of the capacity of man.

> I'd love to see the evidence for this; i'm deeply skeptical. Cool, come and have a coffee with me :) I have older and younger siblings and was the one randomly blessed. Whereas most recognised talents are associated with hard work and so there is then this visible link, I am a good example as I did the bare minimum throughout education (and beyond...). The way my brain processes and selectively discards/stores the…

I am also exceptional in many ways, (some of them negative), and some of this is clearly inherited and likely genetic. I share too many innate strengths with my father and, to a lesser extent, my siblings to disagree with this. But I just don't know how you could preclude developmental factors like "when you started reading as a child", "what sort of puzzles and games you played as a child", "lack of trauma as a child", etc.
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