Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells • Hacker News Board

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#351

Post by renewiltord » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 4:32 PM UTC

twelve40 wrote: post #267

renewiltord wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These drugs are like psychedelics. There are lots of non users talking about them like they know them but all they did is read stuff in popular media. My friend cut usage after he lost weight and finds maintenance easy.

lol well you, on the other hand, sound like the real deal! direct personal experience unlike all those posers, right? except why do you keep bringing up your friend then? This is a really stupid argument, your data point of "one friend" or even two or more friends with unspecified timeline is useless. The only thing that has any meaning is a formal study with a large number of participants over many years of observat…

Dude, it’s simple. You have already made a choice and you choose the first pop culture article that matches that and then start talking about studies this and studies that. I know it, you know it, and everyone else knows it.

And I get that it’s fun but when you’re called out on it you don’t have to get upset. Ten years from now, either you will realize how comical you were being or you will still be the same. It’s better for you if it’s the former. That’s all I’m going to tell you, for your own good.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#352

Post by Wytwwww » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 4:38 PM UTC

hombre_fatal wrote: post #314

greentxt wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbs are harder to control for many people, and less forgiving. A side effect of keto is decreased appetite. A side effect of carbs is overeating.

Only when "carbs" is a euphemism for junk food. Which probably exists because Americans don't eat carbs like beans and broccoli. And instead of eating them, they get told online that they should avoid all carbs. It's a devious euphemism that screws the people over the most that should be eating more beans and broccoli (et al).

> broccoli

Have almost no carbs or any calories, they are basically just water. Like you'd need to eat 1kg just to get 300 calories (less than in e.g. 100g chickpeas).

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#353

Post by adbge » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 4:42 PM UTC

mslack616 wrote: post #350

I'm a fan of open bodybuilding, so I've been following the Ozempic usage trend for a while now. Given the findings on this study, I can see how it may become an essential drug on bodybuilders stacks. Hunger reduction + supraphysiological muscle gain from steroids and growth hormone - (heart) muscle reduction = win/win? Heart problems are one (of many) of the main problems these guys face, so I won't be surprised if O…

Another potential synergy for bodybuilding is that these GLP1 drugs ought to help maintain insulin sensitivity in the face of supraphysiological doses of HGH. Specifically I have the impression that tirzepatide and retrarutide are more effective here than semaglutide, as they possess additional mechanisms of aiding glucose disposal.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#354

Post by loeg » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 4:46 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #237

loeg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are very complex dietary regimes that can be followed to minimize this The dietary regime isn't complex -- just consume a LOT of protein. Something like 1-2 g/kg/d. And non-dietary: do strength training.

This works until it doesn't. Professional body builders do bulk/cut/bulk/cut because after awhile you can't lose weight and put on muscle at the same time, especially if you want to get to the point of being shredded. (well you can do it, but there is no benefit over bulking and cutting)

This comment is not responsive to mine. I am talking about minimizing muscle loss during weight loss, not losing weight and putting on muscle at the same time. And bodybuilders do exactly what I said during their cut phases -- to minimize muscle loss. (Most people losing weight on these drugs are not bodybuilders.)

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#355

Post by csours » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 4:52 PM UTC

These comments make me very sad about scientific literacy. 342 comments and 'control' appears 12 times (before this comment).

Without proper control you could also say that weight loss is associated with loss of heart muscle mass.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#356

Post by ben7799 » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 4:54 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #315

crazygringo wrote: post #281

I'm always so baffled by warnings about losing muscle when losing weight. Of course you do! If your body is tens of pounds lighter, then you don't need the extra muscle to lug it around. This paper is about reduction in heart muscle, and of course your heart doesn't need to be as strong because there's less blood to pump and less tissue to fuel. When you gain weight, you also increase the muscles needed to carry that…

> Our bodies are really good at providing exactly the amount of muscle we need for our daily activities The problem is that the average joe's daily activity is incompatible with an healthy muscle mass. After 30 if you don't actively exercise you lose muscle mass, if you're obese, 50 and starve yourself or take drugs that make you lose more muscles than necessary you won't gain them back ever unless you do some form o…

Some years ago there was a crazy science exhibit going around museums in the US that had human cadavers preserved with some plasticizing process where you could see different tissues. They also had cross sections.

They actually had an exhibit showing the effects of obesity on tissues. This was before fat acceptance became a thing. That was really an eye opening exhibit showing shrunken muscle tissue, shrunken hearts, shrunken/squeezed lungs, etc.. in obese people.

Kind of opened my eyes as to how crazy the changes are.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#357

Post by ben7799 » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 5:05 PM UTC

Etheryte wrote: post #258

heisenbit wrote: post #250

It may be worth considering that a heavier person needs a stronger heart than a lighter one. The heavier weight also acts as a constant load/training. Without some degree normalization we won‘t know whether this is normal or concerning.

This is a very thoroughly studied phenomenon. The hearts of obese people are generally more muscular as you say, but not in a good way, so I wouldn't compare this to training. In overweight people, the heart walls get thicker and the volume of blood that the heart pushes out with each stroke is decreased as a result. This means their heart needs to beat faster to reach the right throughput and their heart is under co…

I think doctors can figure out real quick which version of heart enlargement you have.

The athletes heart is going to beat at 1/2-1/3 the rate at rest compared to the obesity-enlarged heart and a stress test is going to show the athletes upper heart rate limits are much much higher.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#358

Post by ben7799 » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 5:11 PM UTC

jongjong wrote: post #5

As a coder, I'm realising more and more that the human body isn't so different from a computer. When you try to fix something without having complete understanding of all the relevant parts of the system, you will invariably introduce new issues. With a machine as complex as the human body, it seems inevitable that the field of medicine would be a game of whac-a-mole. Finding solutions which don't create new problems…

I like the analogy that biologists are making code changes (especially with genetic therapies) without actually understanding the machine code specification or even having a copy of the source code.

It's like a hacker flipping bits in a binary trying to figure out what's going to happen.. except the hacker at least can look up the complete machine code.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#359

Post by autoexec » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 5:16 PM UTC

jstummbillig wrote: post #325

0xEF wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still disagree. Simplicity and convenience is what people not only want, but demand. And this extends beyond weight loss solutions to our modern world of ever-converging technologies creating ever-complex systems under the guise of efficiency. Multiple cultures have supported these values since the times of snake-oil salesmen, which did not exactly vanish with history, as we so often forget. Look at products like O…

> Simplicity and convenience is what people not only want, but demand. Hmm, that is not my experience generally. People will take insanely ineffective routes if that is what the system pushes them toward, without taking much offense. For example, on the topic of health/weight loss: Weight Watchers or yoga classes are huge industries while also being insanely elaborate and expensive ways of eating better and moving yo…

> Blaming people for their inability to fight their nature is just inhumane

It'd be nice if people didn't have to fight their nature. Our society demands we act in ways that are unhealthy and unnatural. We're forced to sit in chairs 8+ hours a day from very young ages. Children have teachers making sure they stay in their seats, and workers have supervisors enforcing inactivity either in person or using webcams and software. Companies like Amazon insist that their employees piss in bottles or wear diapers because leaving their workstation, even to use a bathroom, will get them fired. The demands of our daily lives and the design of our environments keep us from living the way we've evolved to live and it's normal and should be expected that many people will struggle with that reality more than others.

Either our society and environment needs to change, or our biology and chemistry need to change. Turns out, it's easier to change ourselves than it is to change the massive systems designed by greed and exploitation that we're forced to live in. We'll adapt. Today it's with drugs. Tomorrow it may be genetic manipulation.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#360

Post by consteval » Thu, Nov 21, 2024, 5:16 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #334

hombre_fatal wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only when "carbs" is a euphemism for junk food. Which probably exists because Americans don't eat carbs like beans and broccoli. And instead of eating them, they get told online that they should avoid all carbs. It's a devious euphemism that screws the people over the most that should be eating more beans and broccoli (et al).

Carbs is also colloquialism for calorie dense grains and cereals. Broccoli is like 5% carbs by mass. Bread is 50% carbs by mass. It is a hell of a lot easier to overconsume the latter, spike your insulin, and get into a cycle of cravings. There is no boogie man trying to scare people away from broccoli.

> There is no boogie man trying to scare people away from broccoli

I disagree, everyone I know who has been on a keto dietic consumes little to no fruits or fiber. Honestly, I'm not sure how they use the bathroom successfully with such little fiber ingestion.