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Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

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Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you understand on what basis? Do you know enough to assign addresses in a way that you, not your router, wants? Can you ssh/other forms of remote into any machine that accepts ssh on your local network using only ipv6? Can you redirect ports to specific local machines using only ipv6 (that implies they keep constant addresses)? Can you easily switch between two internet connections going through different routers…

Do you do all this stuff with IPv4? No... especially not at home.

Yes actually. Think multiple machine home office because i WFH, not consumer "just netflix terminals, 3 phones and a console".

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm certain each flight has its own completely unique ID buried somewhere in a database. But, shorter codes can be spoken into a radio faster and with lower probability of misinterpretation - both critical features for air traffic control. Those shorter codes will necessarily be reused, it's just a question of the time interval between re-uses of any particular code. I faintly recall seeing two Southwest flights from…

Tangentially, train 'headcodes' in the UK are not unique for various historical and convenience reasons. They're supposed to be unique within a given 'area' and period of time, but it's not very well specified what either of those are. It rarely causes problems, but very occasionally does.

This is true in the US as well. For example, all northbound trains on Amtrak's Coast Starlight route are train 14 and all southbound trains on the same route are train 11. There's currently a train 14 west of Los Angeles that originated this morning. Meanwhile train 14 that originated in Los Angeles yesterday is a couple hours from pulling in to Eugene, Oregon. Likewise there's a train 11 that just departed Seattle and another train 11 that's just about to pull in to San Jose.

I assume that in theory any given train #/station/date is unique, but given Amtrak's notorious delays, I'm sure that theory has been disproven at least once.

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#353
post #227

> Here’s the full answer, along with how they triage the problem – for instance by assigning the same flight number to more than one flight a day (although that means they need for it to be flights that would never both be in the air at the same time, such as where the same plane is used and can’t reasonably be substituted) This sounds like it's calling for trouble! Whenever I hear that any IDs could be "recycled", I…

You're gonna hate the e.g. Southeast Alaska route names, where the plane arrives from one location, unloads some passengers, loads others, then takes off for another destination entirely (specifically Anchorage->Juneau->Petersburg-Wrangell->Ketchikan->Seattle), and yet it's the same flight number the whole way.

They've competing constraints here: they need all flights to be uniquely identified while in the air, but also all flight identifiers need to be easily expressed over audio. So, even switching to e.g. hexadecimal could be difficult, because "A" can sound like "8". So maybe we use phonetic alphabet for those digits?

Oh but wait, this is to say nothing of the devices actually tasked with transmitting/receiving this info. If the software engineers correctly identified the risk here, then the flight numbers are being stored as two 16-bit integers inside the firmware, so there's plenty of headspace. But if not (say, they only gave 14 bits to the flight number, and 10 bits to the airline designator), then the firmware has to be updated. The FAA lists 648 air traffic control installations in the US, covering 19,000+ American airports. For what are probably obvious reasons, the lions's share of the equipment is not set up for firmware updates via a simple push mechanic, if its setup for remote update at all.

All of this to say, I agree, its dumb, but when this stuff was invented, the prospect of almost 20,000 airports in the US (so, probably on the order of 100,000 globally) likely seemed impossible. Future-proofing has a physical cost, and at the time, it may have been literally impossible to calculate the true cost.

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#354
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, how are they doing that? My mental idea of NAT is that it dyanmically links (address × port) pairs to local addresses. What would be the "port" in the case of flight numbers?

UTC Date + Time of flightplan takeoff

If that would be usable and could be assigned at sufficient precision the flight number would not be necessary at all!

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm certain each flight has its own completely unique ID buried somewhere in a database. But, shorter codes can be spoken into a radio faster and with lower probability of misinterpretation - both critical features for air traffic control. Those shorter codes will necessarily be reused, it's just a question of the time interval between re-uses of any particular code. I faintly recall seeing two Southwest flights from…

Short flights out-and-back from a hub can have the same number on the two legs. An example is AA 1992, which today departs PHL 3:06 PM, arrives ATL 5:17 PM, departs ATL 5:57 PM, arrives back at PHL 8:05 PM. (All times US Eastern.) My mother recently had an itinerary where both her flights were this flight - the PHL-ATL leg on a Sunday and the ATL-PHL leg on the following Saturday. (It looks like as of Tuesday AA 1992…

If they had to switch to a new plane, wouldn't they also need to refile the flight plan? From what I understand that would be the case, so either a new number would be assigned or the details would be updated in the system. I'm not a pilot, I know a few instrument rated pilots but they're private, not commercial so this may not be the case.

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#356
post #284

In 2010, Indian railways switched from a four-digit numbering system to five digits. They were running out of train numbers. Indian railways today operates 13,000 trains daily. There is a PDF that talks about the problem, the solution, exceptions, and a rollout plan. One fine day, IT systems seamlessly transitioned—-took some time to wipe the old numbers from passengers memories.

Do you have a link to the PDF?

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now you have three codes, the old code, a new internal and a new external code.

Two codes. A competently designed system should be able to convert between "internal" and "external codes" using only trivial string manipulation (e.g. no external dependencies, nor any databases to load at runtime; while adding or removing the code type magic-prefix is trivial; and computing/veriftying/concatenating/trimming any check-digits should also be straightforward, like a CC or VIN check-digit. ...basically,…

Just set a reasonable limit and set up a column type change for if you ever have it exceeded?

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you do all this stuff with IPv4? No... especially not at home.

Yes actually. Think multiple machine home office because i WFH, not consumer "just netflix terminals, 3 phones and a console".

Lots of machines at home and yet having DNS tied to DHCP or running mDNS is too much of a hassle.

I would hate to have to remember even the last octet of all my machines in my house. Instead it's just the simple names. The numbers underneath can all change whenever, it doesn't matter. Until I start calling my kids by an octet a name will be easier to remember instead of "is that north camera 101 or 105 or 113 or..." versus "north-camera.my.net" or "is my pool controller 10.7 or 10.8 or..." Instead it's just pool-pump.my.net.

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, IPv6 is the underlying technology behind the general consumers' internet connections, but the general public is not using IPv6. The general public has no idea what IPv6 is. I.e. IPv6 is used by the general public, but the general public is not using IPv6.

By that same token the general public is also not using IPv4. The general public doesn't care, so long as TikTok and Facebook appear on their mobile devices.

When you are driving are you using a throttle body?

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#360
post #227

> Here’s the full answer, along with how they triage the problem – for instance by assigning the same flight number to more than one flight a day (although that means they need for it to be flights that would never both be in the air at the same time, such as where the same plane is used and can’t reasonably be substituted) This sounds like it's calling for trouble! Whenever I hear that any IDs could be "recycled", I…

Reuse of identifiers seems to be a theme in aviation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37401864
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