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Panic at the Job Market

matt.sh

351–360 of 1001 posts

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentioned he has 20+ years of experience, so I think he is in fact comparing to VP-level roles. Most people I’ve met at faang who are over 40 are in fact seniorstaff+ or director+, so it’s not as insane as it seems on first blush, although I think to reach his numbers you’d have to factor in stock appreciation as well. I also think far more people leave faang altogether than reach VP level.

I think you’re right, I see that his resume links to Distinguished Engineer roles at Google / Amazon. Which … I don’t know. At my FAANG-adjacent company, there have only ever been _low_ single-digit number of ICs at that level. We’re talking 0.1-0.3% of all engineers. And they had insane track records. And FWIW I think that there’s at least an order of magnitude more “happy L5s” older than 40 at FAANGs than senior st…

> I think that there’s at least an order of magnitude more “happy L5s” older than 40 at FAANGs

This doesn't match my experience. Can you say which FAANGs?

I think in a healthy company it should be true, but my org at Google (~50 engineers) had one 40+ L5. He told me he was frustrated after repeatedly being passed for L6 promo, and he retired at 45.

The L7+ people (my managers and directors, as well as the org staff+ engineers) were all over 40.

I didn't interact much with principal/distinguished engineers, but I think even L7 is pushing 7 figures nowadays.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#353

I will add my two cents for people who believe that this might be related only to the SWE and tangent industries: It's really not. I have many friends (in Europe) who are trying to get through to different jobs in unrelated industries ranging from finance to fashion, or just trying to get promoted vertically (or horizontally), failing rather miserably. Most jobs are now hoops after hoops, not taking into consideratio…

>> Most jobs are now hoops after hoops.

I had no idea it had gotten so bad. 4th of July was talking with my brother-in-law. His daughter just got some awesome job working for an insurance company (they do commercial insurance) and she had over EIGHT interviews she had to go through, which involved not one, but two days where she spent the day at the company.

I could not believe it takes companies and managers this much work to try and hire someone new. She was fresh out of college, and I was stunned that she stood in there and kept going back for the next interview.

As an aside, I've found the same thing at the very large corporation I work at. The company has made it all but impossible to move laterally to another team you might find interesting and to grow your skills. We have an internal job board and they have lengthy lists of requirements and if you don't meet every single one, you won't get a whiff of an interview. They seem more bent on more outsourcing and contracting at this point. So not only lateral movement is all about impossible, moving up is even harder for the same reason - they're only looking to hire unicorns that come from other FANG companies or on the similar order.

I can't remember a time when I was a developer I had so few people reaching out seeing if I was interested in roles at various companies. At the time I thought it was just a gold rush that seemingly never stopped, even when I thought it would. Even during C19, I still had recruiters contacting him asking me I was interested in remote contract work. Post C19 and everything has dried up. I'm not getting 10 emails from recruiters, I'm not seeing interesting or great roles anywhere that haven't already had 100 people apply. Everybody in my networks are just staying where they are and waiting out the storm so to speak - so no leads from that area either. I apply for a job here and there and never get a response or confirmation they've moved on.

It looks like the writing is finally on the walls that the party is over huh?

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While tough, it's often a good thing for the applicant as a natural filter. If someone can't hire well, it's not a good place to work. But for people like the guy who wrote that article, eviction eventually becomes a problem. And so many companies can't hire well right now that in a market with declining openings he might not be able to wait for a company that can hire well.

The job market can remain irrational far longer than most people can stay solvent.

Or job market remains agile while people are becoming stateless (or homeless in extreme cases).

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brave new world man. I am lucky I am where I am, but I am wondering how far away from the axe I currently stand. They need me now.. because we are in the midst of high stakes project, but later..

How old are you?

Old:D Maybe too old for tech. Naturally, that only contributes to the wondering.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brave new world man. I am lucky I am where I am, but I am wondering how far away from the axe I currently stand. They need me now.. because we are in the midst of high stakes project, but later..

Better make sure that project doesn't ship on time

Hah, this project is shipping.. come hell or high water, or bugs, or nothing working. It is shipping irregardless.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#357
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most jobs are now hoops after hoops, not taking into consideration your particular profile or the contributions you can make. I’ve done some mentoring of CS grads for the past few years. We some times get people with unreasonable interview demands, like companies asking them to make an entire app or website for the interview process. We advise them to decline the really excessive ones. However, it’s rare to see tha…

> it adds up to around 4-5 hours total. That's fine if you can get a job after a few interviews, but when a talented job searcher has to go through that dozens of times to get a job offer, and much of the interview is "leetcode" questions that don't evaluate the skills you'll actually use, is it surprising people are frustrated by the hiring process?

I got fed up this about 8 years ago when it felt like this approach started.

I would go in for a front-end role and people would start asking me about .Net and show me .Net code and ask me see I could figure out why the code didn't work or troubleshoot some Python snippet.

I thought I would never walk out of an interview. When I walked out of three of them because of stuff like this, I kept asking myself if I was being unreasonable. I came to find out talking to other dev friends, this was becoming fairly common and I have no idea why.

All of the big corporations I worked at always focused on specialization. You a DB gyy? Then that's all you do and you're an expert. Front-end guy? Sure, know some design, but client side stuff you should be an expert. Now? Feels like, "How many roles can I hire one person for?" is the standard bearer.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#358
post #54

Wild that explanations of the tech job market like this are still being written without referencing the tax consequences of Section 174 changes.

Will Trump reverse these changes? Will he lower interest rates?

Trump may face a Democratic House and that would make him unable to change tax rates. People forget that the president as of now is not a dictator - to Trumps dismay of course.

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#359

How do you know you're not the midwit? To me it seems quite reasonable that author is the one over complicating everything, and in reality coding interviews are just not that bad. [edit: they're not that bad in the sense that hiring is a inherently lossy process of projecting something incredibly complicated, like skills, personality, motivation, and situation into a 45 minute interview where only 1 or 2 dimension ca…

> How do you know you're not the midwit?

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

Re: Panic at the Job Market

#360
post #151
post #86

Hiring people (mostly engineers) has been my full-time job now for about 15 years and I found myself emphatically agreeing with a lot of Matt's criticisms of modern hiring. Most tech interviews are as relevant to job performance as if hiring a baker required interviewing them about how electron orbitals bind worked gluten together then rejecting bakers who don’t immediately draw a valid orbital configuration. Matt's…

except that referral hiring isn't a thing almost anywhere I know because I've referred people I KNOW are great SE's and I'm literally willing to vouch my own employment for, and they still get treated no different to any other candidate

That's unfortunate.

I've been with my current employer for 18 months. I was a referral and the person who referred me got a $15,000 bonus. I've since referred 2 people. I've gotten one bonus so far and the other should be here in ~3 months. 3 of the 5 companies I've worked for in ~20 in this industry came through my network. Anecdotes but it's worked fine for me.

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