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Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

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Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#351

Post by protomolecule »

boricj wrote: post #241
protomolecule wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we are not vassals of the USA Aren't you? In 2003 Russia, Germany and France were strongly against illegal American invasion of Iraq. The US invaded anyway, ruining the country. What have France and Germany done about that?

France among many nations called bullshit on the WMD claims, we threatened to veto the UN Security Council resolution authorizing a military intervention and we refused to get involved in that mess. The fact that the US government decided to unilaterally invade Iraq anyway is not our responsibility to bear. What could France have done more, try and enact economic sanctions or wage war against the USA over this?

"What could France have done more"

Everything it is doing now towards Russia.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#352

Post by protomolecule »

actionfromafar wrote: post #255
protomolecule wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we are not vassals of the USA Aren't you? In 2003 Russia, Germany and France were strongly against illegal American invasion of Iraq. The US invaded anyway, ruining the country. What have France and Germany done about that?

They did not participate?

That was very brave

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#353

Post by boricj »

protomolecule wrote: post #351
boricj wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France among many nations called bullshit on the WMD claims, we threatened to veto the UN Security Council resolution authorizing a military intervention and we refused to get involved in that mess. The fact that the US government decided to unilaterally invade Iraq anyway is not our responsibility to bear. What could France have done more, try and enact economic sanctions or wage war against the USA over this?

"What could France have done more" Everything it is doing now towards Russia.

Giving weapons and ammo to Saddam Hussein?

Besides the logistical, economical and industrial challenge of supplying enough kit to even make a dent against the expeditionary forces of the USA, which were still doped sky-high on Cold War hand-me-downs, that sounds like a terrible idea.

Hussein's Iraq was not Zelensky's Ukraine and not just because of strategic reasons. The Gulf War happened because Hussein wasn't a friendly neighbor to Kuwait.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#354

Post by Dalewyn »

realityking wrote: post #266
Dalewyn wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This goes both ways. While the US is certainly open to having scientific payloads launched by non-US launch providers (e.g, JWT) it’s strictly not launching military payloads from non-US spaceport or from non-US vehicles. Given this stance, why should other NATO partners fold their own programs? The situation would entirely different if SpaceX was 20% German owned and the US would allow Ariane to compete for military…

The EU should absolutely have their own launch vehicle, that's undoubtedly a good thing.

What I was getting at is, if Europeans resent the US so much then why the sincere hell should we (Americans) defend them?

I would much rather see our servicemen protect actual friends rather than "allies" who sneer at us.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#355

Post by Dalewyn »

piva00 wrote: post #209
Dalewyn wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Because the USA needs NATO and other shit to have soft power and keep its hegemony. Shit like what you said truly makes me wonder about the state of education in the USA when you don't understand a basic geopolitical principle your country has enacted for 80+ years, with massive benefits.

Europe needs the US more than the US needs Europe as far as NATO is concerned, the defence spending disparities speak for themselves.

I sincerely question the logic behind our servicemen putting their lives on the line for someone resenting America this bad.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#357

Post by racional »

protomolecule wrote: post #350
nick__m wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO is purely defensive, it won't invade Russia. It only threatens Putin's empire rebuilding dreams. Without NATO he is free to rebuild and expand Russia's empire.

[flagged]

The point is it was never going to launch an attack on that certain very large country to the East. All the rhetorical moaning and puffing of its current incredibly thin-skinned and backward-looking regime notwithstanding.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#358

Post by igravious »

nordsieck wrote: post #282
m4rtink wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the quite cheap flight-proven Indian rockets & a whole bunch of traditional + private Chinese companies, some actively trying to clone Falcon 9 or even Starship.

> Not to mention the quite cheap flight-proven Indian rockets & a whole bunch of traditional + private Chinese companies, some actively trying to clone Falcon 9 or even Starship. It seems like most of the world has decided not to fly on Chinese rockets, so those aren't really competition. But I totally agree with regard to India: PSLV and GSLV are both good, competitive rockets. It'd kind of a shame that they don't l…

> It seems like most of the world has decided not to fly on Chinese rockets, so those aren't really competition.

The Chinese market is so large that this does not matter: https://payloadspace.com/2023-orbital-launches-by-country/

India's space program/industry, though significant, is much smaller than China's. SpaceX makes up 90% of USA's launches at present.

    US: 109.
    China: 67.
    Russia: 19.
    Europe: 3.
    Other: 25.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#359

Post by se0 »

protomolecule wrote: post #223
boricj wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French mantra is strategic autonomy. We are allies with the USA, we are not vassals of the USA and we do not want to depend on anybody else to defend our own interests or our own agenda. This is why the French army has independent expeditionary and nuclear deterrent capabilities and why nearly all of our military kit is designed and produced either locally or in partnership with nearby European countries. It's no…

>we are not vassals of the USA Aren't you? In 2003 Russia, Germany and France were strongly against illegal American invasion of Iraq. The US invaded anyway, ruining the country. What have France and Germany done about that?

Yeah, so ? Did you expect France to fight the US ?

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#360

Post by mrmlz »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #193
boricj wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French mantra is strategic autonomy. We are allies with the USA, we are not vassals of the USA and we do not want to depend on anybody else to defend our own interests or our own agenda. This is why the French army has independent expeditionary and nuclear deterrent capabilities and why nearly all of our military kit is designed and produced either locally or in partnership with nearby European countries. It's no…

It seems just a ton of money and R&D down the drain developing something already obsolete for some tiny and very theoretical advantage. It seems more sensible to lose a tiny bit of independence for a small window of time and instead use the money to develop an actual state of the art rocket.

It is absolutely not a "theoretical advantage". America is not an altruistic partner when it comes to strategic products.
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