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Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

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Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#351

Post by Joel_Mckay »

semiquaver wrote: post #315
Joel_Mckay wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually in most places, technically as president/CEO of a firm you are already liable for any criminal conduct by your firm/employees-on-the-job. The corporate lawyers should have clearly warned them about this already. Additionally, any criminal lawyer should have warned Boeing people it is often around a 10 year jail term for criminal negligence. Unless the president/CEO can prove they enforced policy to mitigate…

> technically as president/CEO of a firm you are already liable for any criminal conduct by your firm/employees-on-the-job. Citation needed. Limited liability is at the foundation of the very concept of incorporation.

It is right on the incorporation forms prior to entity approval, and in my jurisdiction the Lawyer made this very clear as I make choices hiring ex-servicemen contractors/staff (numerous PTSD issues can limit roles... like "dealing" with aggressive/rude customers can be a bad idea etc.) Additionally, blindly using Lexis Nexis forms can cause issues too, as the same clauses have different legal definitions in different regions.

While a C firm does _often_ protect board member personal assets from civil cases, it also does not guarantee protection.

Also, international investors do not usually create a US LLC given it usually trips 2 tax codes. Talking with awesome AMCHAM reps about this area is probably in your best interest, but most international firms create a Type C corporation on US soil.

Ask your local corporate tax lawyer about liabilities to confirm whether your jurisdiction has harmonized corporate laws.

Being a president/CEO is not what most assume, and even a shareholder can get messy too. Despite pop-culture urban legends, it is not a role for clowns or cons. =3

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#352

Post by tsunamifury »

ActionHank wrote: post #334
deeth_starr_v wrote: post #298

From the article: Paul Cassell, a lawyer for victims’ family members, said he plans to ask the federal judge on the case to reject the deal and “simply set the matter for a public trial, so that all the facts surrounding the case will be aired in a fair and open forum before a jury.” Hard to disagree

If it does go to trial it would be great for people behind this to be directly tried for their criminal actions as well. The reality is that a company is on trial for the actions of individuals and if there is no follow through on that it will not change anything. I doubt it goes to trial as I am 99% sure that the judge will rubber stamp the whole thing because the US is a corporate driven hellscape where peasants ar…

You really want the engineer who was last on the line of decisions to go to jail?

Because that’s how this will go.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#353

Post by Joel_Mckay »

Aurornis wrote: post #341
Joel_Mckay wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually in most places, technically as president/CEO of a firm you are already liable for any criminal conduct by your firm/employees-on-the-job. The corporate lawyers should have clearly warned them about this already. Additionally, any criminal lawyer should have warned Boeing people it is often around a 10 year jail term for criminal negligence. Unless the president/CEO can prove they enforced policy to mitigate…

> Actually in most places, technically as president/CEO of a firm you are already liable for any criminal conduct by your firm/employees-on-the-job. This isn't true as written. CEOs aren't automatically liable for crimes of the company or employees. If a CEO intentionally facilitates or participates in those crimes: Yes, open to liability. If an employee or department commits crimes without the knowledge of the CEO:…

According to the corporate lawyers in my jurisdiction, a CEO is personally liable if one of the staff did something illegal to you while on the job.

This includes criminal negligence.

Have a nice day, and good luck out there... =)

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#354

Post by credit_guy »

deeth_starr_v wrote: post #298

From the article: Paul Cassell, a lawyer for victims’ family members, said he plans to ask the federal judge on the case to reject the deal and “simply set the matter for a public trial, so that all the facts surrounding the case will be aired in a fair and open forum before a jury.” Hard to disagree

> Hard to disagree

But hard to agree too. How exactly can you prevent someone from pleading guilty?

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#355

Post by cooper_ganglia »

Boeing made planes, and then later got into rockets... SpaceX makes rockets, I wonder if they should get into planes?

So long as you make a plane where the door doesn't fly off midair, it seems like a good way to print money and bring some manufacturing jobs back to the USA!

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#356

Post by [deleted] »

credit_guy wrote: post #354
deeth_starr_v wrote: post #298

From the article: Paul Cassell, a lawyer for victims’ family members, said he plans to ask the federal judge on the case to reject the deal and “simply set the matter for a public trial, so that all the facts surrounding the case will be aired in a fair and open forum before a jury.” Hard to disagree

> Hard to disagree But hard to agree too. How exactly can you prevent someone from pleading guilty?

[deleted]

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#357

Post by gunapologist99 »

deeth_starr_v wrote: post #298

From the article: Paul Cassell, a lawyer for victims’ family members, said he plans to ask the federal judge on the case to reject the deal and “simply set the matter for a public trial, so that all the facts surrounding the case will be aired in a fair and open forum before a jury.” Hard to disagree

This is for a criminal case. The victims don't play a prosecutorial role here and are not actually parties to this case.

The appropriate venue for the victims is a civil jury trial (lawsuit), where recovery of losses is possible because the victims then become party to the case (plaintiff).

The reason this lawyer is requesting this is so that the government will be forced to lay its cards on the table during trial, which provide much stronger proof/evidence of Boeing's wrongdoing (which otherwise would likely be much harder to discover), and make it far more likely for a jury to award a huge award to the plaintiffs.

So this is completely rational on the part of the lawyer, but the judge doesn't have to go along with it at all, and might not.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#358

Post by WinstonSmith84 »

tsunamifury wrote: post #352
ActionHank wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it does go to trial it would be great for people behind this to be directly tried for their criminal actions as well. The reality is that a company is on trial for the actions of individuals and if there is no follow through on that it will not change anything. I doubt it goes to trial as I am 99% sure that the judge will rubber stamp the whole thing because the US is a corporate driven hellscape where peasants ar…

You really want the engineer who was last on the line of decisions to go to jail? Because that’s how this will go.

Such decisions are way above the pay grade of random engineers

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#359

Post by cptaj »

tsunamifury wrote: post #352
ActionHank wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it does go to trial it would be great for people behind this to be directly tried for their criminal actions as well. The reality is that a company is on trial for the actions of individuals and if there is no follow through on that it will not change anything. I doubt it goes to trial as I am 99% sure that the judge will rubber stamp the whole thing because the US is a corporate driven hellscape where peasants ar…

You really want the engineer who was last on the line of decisions to go to jail? Because that’s how this will go.

There's a code of ethics for a reason.

Re: Boeing to plead guilty to criminal fraud charge stemming from 737 MAX crashes

#360

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #358
tsunamifury wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really want the engineer who was last on the line of decisions to go to jail? Because that’s how this will go.

Such decisions are way above the pay grade of random engineers

Never forget Kareem Serageldin - the one person who went to jail for the 2007 financial crisis.

In fairness, he was an exec making $7M per year - so not a nobody, but he was only managing 70 people (Credit Suisse was a ~50k person company), and obviously not the only person who should've went to jail.

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