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Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

nytimes.com

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Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#351

Post by NotYourLawyer »

mathsmath wrote: post #51
jrmg wrote: post #46

Artillery crew members who fired thousands of rounds in combat came home plagued by hallucinations and psychosis Could this problem also be affecting civilian gun enthusiasts? Or is the order of magnitude of the exposure just wildly lower compared to the military, even in the most enthusiastic?

I think it depends on the shockwave. Maybe someone can math it out, but it’s like the sound leaf blower makes vs standing right next to a jet engine. I have never seen a shockwave on the ground behind a “normal” firearm, but it seems commonplace with artillery.

You can definitely see the shock wave from a .50 cal with a muzzle brake.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#352

Post by somenameforme »

baxtr wrote: post #242
kragen wrote: post #217

> Much of what is categorized as post-traumatic stress disorder may actually be caused by repeated exposure to blasts. that is to say, it's actually shell shock? as in, actual physical shock from actual shells? george carlin would be so proud https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc the article also mentions that they'd all trained extensively in diving deep underwater, which is also known to cause brain damage, b…

I wonder if the Havanna syndrome is somehow correlated with this as well

There was a rather scathing study on it here. [1] In short the government's own internal investigations realized the obvious answer, a mass hysteria event, was the most likely culprit. But politics got involved and so then they classified reports mentioning this, and released reports suggestive of foreign adversaries attacking people with some mystery weapon, even though their own internal reports put the chances of that at basically zero. So they then set out so study and solve the issue, unsurprisingly finding nothing. The paper's concluding paraph is brutal:

---

Over the course of their 6-year investigation into “Havana Syndrome” U.S. officials expended considerable human capital and financial resources going down a rabbit hole searching for exotic explanations. Instead of finding secret weapons and foreign conspiracies—they found only rabbits. For in the end, prosaic explanations were determined to be the cause of the events in Cuba and its subsequent global spread. That is the lesson of “Havana Syndrome”—follow the science.

---

[1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10913303/

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#353

Post by nabla9 »

15155 wrote: post #350
nabla9 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not all SOF shoot, of course. SCAR-H, M14 EBR, M249 SAWs and M240 all shoot 7.52mm x 51mm NATO (compatible with .308 but slightly different chamber pressures)

Sure, but we should be able to see if 0331 guys and the like have a higher incidence rate of suicide overall. Presumably they are spending far more time on these platforms than SOF.

The amount of shooting 0311 Rifleman does is fraction of what SOF does. The problem is accumulation of damage and no healing periods.

As I said, we don't if calibers below .50 cause significant damage when shooting in excessive amounts. Trying to figure it as a layman is useless. It's better to show epistemic humility than try to assert one way or another.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#354

Post by wyldfire »

From a NYT article about the Lewiston, Maine shooter's brain injuries [1]:

> Researchers found that before they worked around blasts, the instructors brains looked healthy. But in follow-up scans five months later, their brains were teeming with an abnormal protein called beta amyloid that is associated with Alzheimer’s disease.

> “In a young brain you should see no amyloid. None. Zero,” said Dr. Carlos Leiva-Salinas, the University of Missouri neuroradiologist who ran the study. “We were surprised, very surprised.”

[1] http://archive.today/ju6iq

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#355

Post by le-mark »

maybelsyrup wrote: post #124
snakeyjake wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't do anything without $40 billion of air assets circling their position providing cover and get pissy when you tell them they have to shave and can't paint their weapons arbitrary colors. Also they're all on drugs and will kill you if you report them for embezzling unit funds.

> Also they're all on drugs and will kill you if you report them for embezzling unit funds. This is maybe not too related to the brain damage stuff (or maybe it is?), but I don't think the wider public knows nearly enough about the frankly shocking kinds and amounts of criminality in the various US special forces units. OP is not kidding about these people operating as gangs (but worse, because they're sanctioned kil…

There are a lot of factors around military members and civilian law enforcement. Generally civilian law enforcement will let the military handle their own under UCMJ. Under UCMJ they can lose rank, retirement benefits, or get jail time and a dishonorable discharge. The prospect of losing retirement could be earth shattering g for these guys I imagine. Further complications are these SOF people have A LOT of classified information. The government absolutely does not want them testifying under oath about anything.

UCMJ can take a long time to process similar to civilian cases. All that time the accused is with their unit, as usual.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#356

Post by lazide »

ein0p wrote: post #231
lazide wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if there is no ‘primary cause’ that can be fixed, while still solving the underlying need the country seems to have - which is ‘have a large standing group of highly trained, extremely focused, non-conformist, insanely competitive, and professional killers ready at a moments notice’? It’s not like the mere fact of creating/concentrating the population of the folks willing to be this doesn’t also create a whole s…

What if there is a primary cause, and brain trauma is not it? Seems pretty likely that the issue is psychological in nature, otherwise contact combat sports and eg rugby/football would show similar incidence of suicide. I can see how after a couple of years of high intensity combat civilian life would feel like a complete waste of time and a road to nowhere.

Interestingly, if I remember correctly, other contact sports like football do show similar increases in suicide (and unexpected homicide). It’s why football is getting phased out in a lot of areas for kids. But oddly, based on [https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/04/10/health/student-athlete-su...] cross country athletes actually have the highest rates, which is surprising.

Unless, like you’re saying, it is as much about the group being selected for as it is whatever is going on during the activity itself.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#357

Post by mc32 »

tsimionescu wrote: post #199
mc32 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, a society that sends women to war is more or less a cowardly society dressing it up as equality. What sort of male sends the female to check on the noises that sound like an intruder in the wee hours of the night? Do they set turns and when it's her turn she's gotta check out the noises? Any gal married or shacked up with a guy like that should kick him out before night is over. Can you imagine Paul askin…

This blatant mysogyny is shocking so out in the open. There's nothing "cowardly" about asking a woman to protect her country, or her husband. Not that I support the idea of drafting civilian populations as soldiers in general: it's mostly a way to get innocent people killed and not much more.

I think you mean misandry. Perhaps it is. Men bear the burden of conflict. Women bear the aftermath. But that’s how things shake out due to biology. Same as we frown upon sending children to war. Yes, they are easier to indoctrinate and can pull a trigger just as well as adults (see today’s conflict ridden areas of Africa). Yet, we know better than to send “future us-es” into the grinder guaranteeing societal collapse.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#358

Post by zorked »

sobriquet9 wrote: post #316
garbagewoman wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that feeling might be partly due to the large amounts of lead compounds in primers being inhaled by the shooter

Not really a concern outdoors. Ben Stoeger, world shooting champion and firearms trainer who shoots a lot, said his blood lead levels are normal and attributes it to shooting outdoors.

n=1

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#359

Post by [deleted] »

alexey-salmin wrote: post #180
joegibbs wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting that at the time, in WW1, it was assumed to be a physical injury to the brain caused by the shockwave of exploding artillery shells (hence the name). A few years later a consensus evolved that it's a psychological problem caused by the stress of combat, which was the prevailing opinion for about 100 years. And now it's looking like it might actually be a physical injury caused by shockwave damage t…

Well the good thing they went forward back then and invented the modern helmet to protect people in trenches from overhead explosions. And incredibly it seems that the Adrian helmet still outperforms modern helmet designs in the blast protection quality. [1] It can't stop a bullet sure, but I suspect that chances of being hit by an overhead blast are higher than that a of a headshot in a typical warfare scenario. [1]…

[deleted]

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#360

Post by technothrasher »

nabla9 wrote: post #279
kragen wrote: post #217

> Much of what is categorized as post-traumatic stress disorder may actually be caused by repeated exposure to blasts. that is to say, it's actually shell shock? as in, actual physical shock from actual shells? george carlin would be so proud https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuEQixrBKCc the article also mentions that they'd all trained extensively in diving deep underwater, which is also known to cause brain damage, b…

.50 cal sniper rifles and shoulder launched weapons like Carl Gustaf, the M72 LAW or the AT4 can. Firing a rifle may or may not cause shock waves that are strong enough. If you have been firing a whole day you definitely feel funny in the head.

Having fired a .50 cal sniper rifle just a couple of times, I was all set. The shock wave from each trigger pull made my nasopharynx hurt. That couldn't have been good.
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