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Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

theguardian.com

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Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#351

Post by zug_zug »

snaeker58 wrote: post #231

I really hate these aphantasia questions. It feels too subjective. I can visualize in a sense, but I would never talk of an image. In fact closing my eyes makes it harder for me to imagine anything. I can recall my dream from last night for example, I can describe it quite well. If you now would ask me to in my mind modify for example the color of the floor, I couldn’t. Because in “dream reality” I very much remember…

Agree 100%. I pretty much discount everything everyone says until we start running hard science experiments.

One way to measure scientifically is to ask somebody to picture a room. The the experimenter keeps describing adding items to the room until the experimentee can no longer recall. By defining positions for all these items one could verify it is indeed visual memory by asking location questions.

I don't know if other people have thought of this and started doing it yet, but they should.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#352

Post by satvikpendem »

smokel wrote: post #340
satvikpendem wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you believe that "normal" people have some magic hi-res virtual movie projector that superimposes crystal clear visions inside their heads. No, it's all just memories and concepts. Some people do, hyperphantasia. I can do this, perfectly visualize the details of the Mona Lisa and examine it from any angle in my mind's eye. If I am in a semi-lucid state while nearing sleep, I can do it even more intensely, a…

How can you be sure that you actually see the details, and that you are not merely experiencing the feeling of seeing those details? Have you tried drawing the Mona Lisa from various angles? To what level of detail can you comfortably reproduce it?

> How can you be sure that you actually see the details, and that you are not merely experiencing the feeling of seeing those details?

Can you describe the difference to me based on your experience? I don't quite understand what it would be, because in my mind's eye, I can literally see the entirety of the Mona Lisa. It does not feel like a "feeling," like happiness or angriness, those are what I'd classify as feelings.

> Have you tried drawing the Mona Lisa from various angles? To what level of detail can you comfortably reproduce it?

I don't draw so it would be limited by my drawing ability, but I can reproduce it pretty well if I tried hard enough, as I can visualize it completely in my mind.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#353

Post by satvikpendem »

smeej wrote: post #286
Eric_WVGG wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It cracks me up —- every time this topic comes up, a few people chime in to say that people who claim they can visualize things are just lying. No dudes, we can see the Mona Lisa just by thinking about it. Quite literally. I can see Luke and Obi Wan sitting in the hut discussing the Force, and that blue hologram of Carrie Fisher, in detail. And of course there’s audio, now the Cerveza Cristal theme is rattling around…

My "screen" isn't anywhere in space. It's in my internal world. If I want to see only it, I take a step out of reality, into my head, and there it is. Doesn't matter whether my eyes are open or closed, there's just another reality I can enter. I can superimpose things from it on normal reality too though, wherever I want them. They're in all three dimensions, like I can walk around them, or just copy the entire scene…

Sounds like you actually have the opposite, hyperphantasia, perhaps even of an extreme kind. I also lucid dream, very vividly, but I cannot superimpose things from my mind onto my visual plane, it is more like the above parent for me, it's in a separate area from the visual plane altogether, and I suspect that's most people except for those with hyperphantasia.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#354

Post by ergonaught »

listenallyall wrote: post #305
ergonaught wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you think you've gained or stated with this remark. "Mind's eye" and "visualization" refer to actual experiences. Those of us with aphantasia (no exceptions that I've encountered so far) did not realize these words referred to actual experiences.

Define "actual experiences". Normal people can not imagine an object like a red apple and actually see it, same as if one existed right in front of them. They can "visualize" it (just like you, it sounds), as in they can think of what it looks like, they would recognize one, they can even imagine broader scenes involving this apple (like an entire grocery aisle) but there is no "actual experience." You couldn't walk…

The generous interpretation of everything you've written so far is that you have aphantasia and don't realize it, and when it finally registers you'll feel like a real ass about these comments.

There are less generous interpretations.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#355

Post by LennyHenrysNuts »

My daughter has aphantasia. I can't imagine what it must be like for her - my visual imagination is ridiculously rich.

I can traumatize myself with what I can see in my mind's eye it's so strong, but for her, she has absolutely no ability to visualize whatsoever.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#356

Post by lannisterstark »

dmd wrote: post #259
lannisterstark wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And I don’t know what I had for breakfast today ಠ_ಠ what the fuck

I am also like this. Why would I remember that? I don't remember almost anything I don't work to remember or is unusual. It's amazing to me that people do. (I also have aphantasia and find it extremely difficult to believe that the entire thing isn't just a misunderstanding of language.)

>Why would I remember that?

Why wouldn't you lol

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#357

Post by khazhoux »

solumunus wrote: post #236
gnz11 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also the same as the person in the article. Pure speculation on my part, but I am convinced that it’s the people who can fully visualize things that are the outliers and not the other way around.

How do you navigate via memory without some degree of mental visualisation? I’m convinced many aphantasia folk are just heavily overrating what other people are describing as visualisation, as if it’s some kind of minority report style interface that appears before you and is perceived by the eye. It’s simply being able to reconstruct physical entities as mental models. Again, without being able to do that it just se…

I can visualize nothing, but have excellent navigation skills. I can accurately remember the geospatial arrangement of cities and locations and routes I visited only once decades ago. That part of my brain has nothing to do with “seeing things”

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#358

Post by khazhoux »

sfpotter wrote: post #345
harimau777 wrote: post #258

I've sometimes wondered if I could have aphantasia or perhaps be low enough on the visual imagery spectrum to have some of the practical effects of aphantasia. When I try to visualize an object, I can in some sense visualize it but it feels very indistinct. It's like I can't see the object as a whole only the specific details I focus on. For example, I have a friend who wears circular glasses and has a handlebar must…

This is just normal. I wouldn't overthink it. If you were truly "aphantasic", you'd know; if you truly had preternatural visualization abilities, you'd know.

Respectfully, you don’t know which experience is really normal (most common)

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#359

Post by SuperNinKenDo »

whiteandnerdy wrote: post #100
SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #90

One of the times aphantasia has been brought up here somebody posted a guide to training your brain to see more vivid imagery from someone who alleges they started out aphantasic and trained themselves to not be. Does anybody have the link, I've been searching for it for like a year since I forgot to backup my bookmarks before a resinstall.

I don't have a specific link, but the general method is called "image streaming". It's pretty googleable so you should be able to find something similar at least.

Thanks! That gives me a lead to follow.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#360

Post by smokel »

satvikpendem wrote: post #352
smokel wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you be sure that you actually see the details, and that you are not merely experiencing the feeling of seeing those details? Have you tried drawing the Mona Lisa from various angles? To what level of detail can you comfortably reproduce it?

> How can you be sure that you actually see the details, and that you are not merely experiencing the feeling of seeing those details? Can you describe the difference to me based on your experience? I don't quite understand what it would be, because in my mind's eye, I can literally see the entirety of the Mona Lisa. It does not feel like a "feeling," like happiness or angriness, those are what I'd classify as feelin…

It's probably impossible to tell the difference (which would explain the lack of understanding of opposing groups in this thread), unless one tests their ability to actually see the details instead of merely believing that one sees the details.

If drawing is not your thing, consider whether you can count the number of creases in her sleeves, or what length the shadow under her nose is, and where the light source is coming from.

Note that I'm not interested in memory aspects here. If one can't differentiate minute details, yet still see them highly realistically, then what exactly is it one sees? Probably not the same as the real thing or a photographic image.

A follow-up question would be whether the envisioned details are stable enough to draw or reason from, or whether the image keeps changing in one's head. In the latter case, the process of phantasising may be more akin to what diffusion models do.

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