Earlier quoted context omitted.
“The free market would fix it” quite spiritually similar to “god will provide” or “prayer solves everything.” Maybe, maybe with an unwieldy amount of time the rubes would all die out as they administer snake oil to themselves and their families, the pyramid schemes all collapse under the weight of their inability to produce the results their funders sought, and the collective, unorganized and ungovernmented multitude…
Poisoning people isn't speech. If I sell you a product that actually gives you cancer and say it doesn't, the crime shouldn't be that I lied, it should be that I gave you cancer.
EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
351–360 of 360 posts
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#352Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
Problem is the damage is already done. You lost your job. Your kid committed suicide. The mod has murdered. You can’t undo that, not to mention it not illegal to fire someone because if you read some false facts in the paper
Punishing someone for "bad" speech is also not going to prevent that. Both approaches rely on punishment disincentivizing others from behaving in the same way. Except that "hate speech" laws are a bludgeon that a) can be easily circumvented by clever speech that is still going to encourage violence and b) is guaranteed to be used sooner or later as a pretense to silence dissidents whose speech would not result in vio…
Is basically the argument you’re making here. So I guess we shouldn’t have any punishment for any behaviour then eh?
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#354Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Anyone who defended that isn't even close to a free-speech absolutist. No True Scotsman. > You just don't want to acknowledge such a stance is possible because the people you agree with are in power, allow the speech you agree with, and censor the speech you don't disagree with, so you stand with nothing to gain by supporting free speech. That's a personal choice to have no integrity. ... I am not American, neither…
>No True Scotsman. Nope. If you support laws that censor criticism of israel you are not a free speech supporter, let alone an absolutist. The term has a very clear definition and it's the opposite of what the antisemitism law entails. >... I am not American, neither do I have anyone in power who supports the speech I agree with. Did I say you were American? All of Europe and many parts of Asia are way worse when it…
I'd argue that someone who has effectively control over some kind of mob riling them up is quite a bit more threatening than a "direct threat" if they know that mob contains people that will (or even just are very likely to) commit violence as a result of it: instead of making one direct threat, they generate multiple (indirect and possibility silent) ones.
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#355Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#356Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
Punishing someone for "bad" speech is also not going to prevent that. Both approaches rely on punishment disincentivizing others from behaving in the same way. Except that "hate speech" laws are a bludgeon that a) can be easily circumvented by clever speech that is still going to encourage violence and b) is guaranteed to be used sooner or later as a pretense to silence dissidents whose speech would not result in vio…
“Punishing someone for theft or murder isn’t going to prevent that” Is basically the argument you’re making here. So I guess we shouldn’t have any punishment for any behaviour then eh?
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ahh, the Misunderstanding Olympics of 2021 The Apple system was pretty much the best way this could be done short of having a 100% reliable "AI" system on-device detecting bad stuff.
> 100% reliable "AI" system It wasn't 100% reliable and in fact people quickly found collisions. Which you should expect to be able to with an even more advanced system. > Ahh, the Misunderstanding Olympics of 2021 There's much nicer ways to say this that is congruent with community standards[0]. If you believe I have misunderstood then try pointing out specifically what I have misunderstood instead of just making an…
They forgot that:
a) It required _multiple_ matches before it was mathematically possible for Apple to see any of the photos
b) AFTER the multiple matches to known and verified CSAM signatures there would be an actual human looking at the picture (at reduced resolution or something like that)
c) Only after the human factor they would consider getting law enforcement involved.
Now your fancy collision has slightly inconvenienced a minimum wage CSAM checker for 15 seconds.
Not exactly a master plan for getting people SWATed for CSAM possession =)
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And the "Misunderstanding Olympics" was referring to the fact that I think I was one of 12 people in the world who actually read the specs of how the system was designed and didn't just imagine in my head how they might've done it and started panicking about "Tim Apple looking at every photo on my phone!!11".
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
> 100% reliable "AI" system It wasn't 100% reliable and in fact people quickly found collisions. Which you should expect to be able to with an even more advanced system. > Ahh, the Misunderstanding Olympics of 2021 There's much nicer ways to say this that is congruent with community standards[0]. If you believe I have misunderstood then try pointing out specifically what I have misunderstood instead of just making an…
Yes, they made collisions with cat pictures and complete gibberish. Whoopdedoo. They forgot that: a) It required _multiple_ matches before it was mathematically possible for Apple to see any of the photos b) AFTER the multiple matches to known and verified CSAM signatures there would be an actual human looking at the picture (at reduced resolution or something like that) c) Only after the human factor they would cons…
It is about how such a technology can enable abuse. It does not matter if the technology is exclusively used for good if the harm it does if abused is too great. And we have plenty of evidence to see that irrespective of which country you reside in, that the scope of such projects typically widens. We also live in a global world and we are not exclusively subjected to the laws of our own governments. We don't have to go far back in history to see examples of the government turning on its own citizens. It is not just the US, it is not just German, not just Russia, not just China, but such actions have been prolific. I do not believe the is sufficient reason to believe your own government is incapable of abusing such power and I'd accuse you of lunacy if you claim that no government would seek to abuse it. Was not the US founded on the explicit principle of treating the government as an adversarial entity? Because if not, well then one of us must be illiterate, since Federalist 10 and 51 famously write this explicitly. Not to mention a litany of quotes by Jefferson.
experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms, those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny
So no, it is not a misunderstanding on my part as to the specs of the technology. Because the matter is about how much harm could be caused when such perversion happens. It is the understanding that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That evil is not solely created by evil men seeking to do evil, but the unfortunate reality is that it is often created when good men are seeking to do good. Even under the best forms.Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
The EU is an evolution of the EEC which is much older. The whole federation as a concept was made after and in response to WWII
The European Coal and Steel Community wasn't meant to be a political federation, as the name shows. Nor was the European Economic Community to give it its full name. The concept of the ECSC/EEC/EU as a political federation was always a goal of some small number of federalists (mostly in the beginning communists who were imprisoned on Ventotene during the war), but they didn't have any support for that from the people…
“There will be no peace in Europe if the States are reconstituted on the basis of national sovereignty, with all that that entails in terms of prestige politics and economic protectionism. The countries of Europe are too small to guarantee their peoples the prosperity that modern conditions make possible and consequently necessary. Prosperity for the States of Europe and the social developments that must go with it will only be possible if they form a federation or a "European entity" that makes them into a common economic unit.”
Federation was always the goal and it was in direct response to WWII.