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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#351

Post by mattmaroon »

lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

I think what you’re suggesting has been the prevailing view among biologists for decades. It’s uncontroversial to say they’re conscious.

Whether they’re self-aware, understand death, how intelligent they are, etc. are where the debates are and have been for a very long time.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#352

Post by dsego »

throwup238 wrote: post #38

> We now know that bees can count, recognise human faces and learn how to use tools. I was curious what that means in this context and found this research (co-authored by Prof Chittka mentioned in the article): https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou... Apparently only a small minority of bumble bees can figure out how to pull a string to access a reward, but then other bees adopt the behavior by…

> Apparently only a small minority of bumble bees can figure out how to pull a string to access a reward, but then other bees adopt the behavior by mimicry.

Humans are the same, try teaching basic math equations to kids. When I was in school, most of us learned math by memorizing steps to solve the problem instead of understanding it. Then on the test if we found something we couldn't recognize, we wouldn't be able to solve it. There were usually only a couple of kids in the class who really practiced and understood the principles. I believe most humans usually learn patterns and rarely have genuine insight or grasp of the subject.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#353

Post by formvoltron »

given that we don't remember what happened before our lives, and most likely when we die we enter a similar state... so that life starts whenever a physical life begins (later a mental life starts and exists until the time that physical life dies)... Then the idea that all creatures are conscious is a pretty bad idea. It means that being a conscious being such as a human is ridiculously improbable, given the very high ratio of all conscious creatures count vs human count.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#354

Post by lukan »

sim7c00 wrote: post #340
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

i love how humans always put themselves outside of nature, and like you point out, that scientists, even though they dispute where that notion comes from, cling onto it religiously :D. There's even animals with more developed / complex brains as us, but surely, they can't be conscious! My dog isn't dreaming about anything, he's just flapping his feet and snorting and making cute sounds in his sleep at random, likely…

How else could you justify treating them as a mere raw ressource in factory?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#355

Post by abainbridge »

sim7c00 wrote: post #340
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

i love how humans always put themselves outside of nature, and like you point out, that scientists, even though they dispute where that notion comes from, cling onto it religiously :D. There's even animals with more developed / complex brains as us, but surely, they can't be conscious! My dog isn't dreaming about anything, he's just flapping his feet and snorting and making cute sounds in his sleep at random, likely…

Not only that, but my dog has enough theory of mind to ignore a toy/food resource until another dog turns up, at which point she will grab it and parade in front of the other dog to show they can't have it. She knows she can demonstrate dominance by holding the resource that she thinks the other dog wants, even though she doesn't want it herself.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#356

Post by 4ggr0 »

lukan wrote: post #354
sim7c00 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i love how humans always put themselves outside of nature, and like you point out, that scientists, even though they dispute where that notion comes from, cling onto it religiously :D. There's even animals with more developed / complex brains as us, but surely, they can't be conscious! My dog isn't dreaming about anything, he's just flapping his feet and snorting and making cute sounds in his sleep at random, likely…

How else could you justify treating them as a mere raw ressource in factory?

I genuienly think that this is one of the biggest factors when talking about this topic. Lots of people seem very defensive when talking about it. Because if they admit or speculate that animals have some form of consciousness, they also admit that they're responsible for killing thousands of conscious beings.

As for myself, I can't believe that animals aren't concious.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#357

Post by solardev »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #177
squigz wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't another explanation be that the dog thought the human literally didn't exist? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_permanence

No, because the dog could smell and hear the human, just like they could smell the treat.

It's possible the human ceases to exist once the treat is present. The same thing happens to me when there's dessert next to the salad.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#358

Post by tejohnso »

mattmaroon wrote: post #351
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

I think what you’re suggesting has been the prevailing view among biologists for decades. It’s uncontroversial to say they’re conscious. Whether they’re self-aware, understand death, how intelligent they are, etc. are where the debates are and have been for a very long time.

> I think what you’re suggesting has been the prevailing view among biologists for decades. It’s uncontroversial to say they’re conscious.

Then why do we have a subhead the likes of "A series of experiments have led a number of scientists to say animals may be conscious."

Makes it seems as though some major discovery is afoot.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#359

Post by sethammons »

whodidntante wrote: post #182
kazinator wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not the case that the more "intelligent" human is, the more "conscious" they are. Why not? > Consciousness is the individual experience of the "interiority" of a world model constructed in the brain. The more complex and detailed the model, the more conscious. Why not?

Dogs can hear far better than people. They can see far better. They not only smell better, but they smell differently - two independent nostrils, with the ability to hold a smell across breaths - they smell in stereo and can sense past movements of animals by smell differential. They can also sense emotions, infer intent, and are very aware of, respond to, and participate in social interactions and hierarchies across…

Consciousness is your mental model of your environment. Dogs have theirs and we have ours. That does leave the question on the scope of consciousness. More processing power equals more, expanded consciousness it would stand to reason.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#360

Post by fallingknife »

maxbond wrote: post #218
lolinder wrote: post #66

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

I think there is also a misguided razor that people who self identify as rationalists often apply, which goes, "the most cynical or disenchanted answer is likely the correct one." An overcorrection to superstition, perhaps. I personally did this, and one of the symptoms was being overly skeptical of animal consciousness. People would tell me this dog was smart or that it was feeling a certain way, and I dismissed it,…

The most cynical and disenchanted answer (and most likely to be true) is that animals are just as conscious as humans and that we just made all this nonsense up to justify our actions.
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