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Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

rknight.me

351–360 of 555 posts

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#351
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be possible to stop an LLM from training itself on your data? If you want to restrict access to data then don't post it on a public website. It's easy enough to require registration and agreement to licensing terms for access. It seems like some website owners want to have their cake and eat it too. They want their content indexed by Google and other crawlers in order to drive search traffic but they do…

Because if I run a server - at my own expense - I get to use information provided by the client to determine what, if any, response to provide? This isn’t a very difficult concept to grasp.

This is a technical fact.

It is also a technical fact that a client can send any header it wants.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#352

There are two different questions at play here, and we need to be careful what we wish for. The first concern is the most legitimate one: can I stop an LLM from training itself on my data? This should be possible and Perplexity should absolutely make it easy to block them from training. The second concern, though, is can Perplexity do a live web query to my website and present data from my website in a format that th…

The problem that Perplexity has that ad blockers don't is that they're an independent site that is publishing content based on work they didn't produce. That runs afoul of both copyright laws and section 230 which let's sites like Google and Facebook operate. That's pretty different from an ad blocker running on your local machine. The ad blocker isn't publishing the page it edited for you.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#353

There is zero obligation for any client to present any particular user agent. If you don't want your content to be read, don't put it on the web.

Reading is completely fine as this is author's intention. Using someone else's content in commercial purposes for free is absolutely not -- are you saying that we should ignore copyrights and all that since something is on the web? If I, as ordinary person, wanted to do that to a company, that company would call me a thief. So I think it's only fair to apply same logic to them.

Actually you are engaging in selective discrimination against artificial intelligence. If someone, a human, read your blog and offered a consulting service using the knowledge gained from your blog, it would be legal. You wouldn't discriminate against biological intelligence, so why discriminate against artificial intelligence? Speaking in the limiting sense, you are denying it a right to exist and to fend for itself.

To help you in your decision, consider alternative forms of intelligence and existence such as those in simulation, those in a vat, and in any other possible substrates. How do you draw the line? Are humans the only ones that deserve to offer the consulting service?

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#354
I think copyright law as a mechanism for incentivizing the creation of new intellectual works is fundamentally challenged by the invention and continued development of the shockingly powerful machine learning technique of generative pre-training and those inspired.

The only reason big companies are under focus is because only they currently have the financial and social resources to afford to train state of the art AI models that threaten human creative work as a means of earning a living. This means we can focus enforcement on them and perpetuate the current legal regime. This moat is absolutely not permanent; we as a species didn’t even know it was actually possible to achieve these sorts of results in the first place. Now that we know, certainly over time we will understand and iterate on these revelations to the point that any individual could construct highly capable models of equal or greater capacity than that which only a few have access to today. I don’t see how copyright is even practically enforceable in such a future. Would we collectively even want to?

Rather than asserting a belief about legal/moral rights or smugly tell real people whose creative passion is threatened by this technology that resistance is futile, I think we need to urgently discuss how we incentivize and materially support the continued human involvement in creative expression before governments and big corporations decide it for us. We need to discussing and advocating for proactive policy on the AI front generally, no job appears safe including those who develop these models and employ them.

Personally, I’m hoping for a world that looks like how chess evolved after computers surpassed the best humans. The best players now analyze their past matches to an accuracy never before possible and use this information to tighten up their game. No one cares about bot matches, it isn’t just about the quality of the moves but the people themselves.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there is a real content dilemma here at work It's not really a dilemma. This is exactly what copyright serves to protect authors from. Perplexity copied the content, and in doing so directly competes with the original work, destroying it's market value and driving the original author out of business. Literally what copyright was invented to prevent. It's the exact same situation as journalists going after G…

I see no competition. I use Perplexity regularly to give me summaries of articles or to do preliminary research. If I like what I'm seeing, then I go to the source. If a source chooses to block their content because they don't want it to be accessed by AI bots then they reduce even further the chance of me - and increasingly more persons - touching their site at all.

"Let us steal your content or you won't get any traffic" sounds extortionate

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#356
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would an LLM training on your writing reduce your reward? I guess if you're doing it for a living sure, but most content I consume online is created without incentive (social media, blogs, stack overflow). I write a fair amount and have been for a few years. I like to play with ideas. If an llm learned from my writing and it helped me propagate my ideas, I'd be happy. I lose on social status imaginary internet po…

> How would an LLM training on your writing reduce your reward? Because you're not getting the ad impressions anymore. The harsh reality is that people do not click on to sources , so when sites like Perplexity copy your content, you lose the revenue on that content. This, in turn, drives all real journalism out of business. And then everyone's screwed, including these AI reposting sites.

It's a literal tragedy of the commons

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if I run a server - at my own expense - I get to use information provided by the client to determine what, if any, response to provide? This isn’t a very difficult concept to grasp.

This is a technical fact. It is also a technical fact that a client can send any header it wants.

I think that is implied in my comment. You can send me whatever request you want, within the bounds of the law. I get to decide, within the bounds of the law, how I respond. Demanding I provide a particular response to every client (and what the parent commenter and others seem to be arguing for) is where I take exception.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#358
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it is, but which of the many small websites are going to be able to fight them legally? Most companies would go broke before getting a ruling. Reality is, the law doesn't matter if you're big enough. As long as they're not stealing content from the big ones, they're going to be fine.

Well, I guess what I mean is if the situation is as I describe in my previous comment, then anyone who did have the money to fight it would be a shoe-in. It's a much stronger case than, for example, the ongoing lawsuits by Matthew Butterick and others ( https://llmlitigation.com/ ).

Thanks for the link, that's fantastic to hear!

I'm seriously sick of that whole "laundering copyright via AI"-grift - and the destruction of the creative industry is already pretty noticable. All the creatives who brought us all those wonderful masterworks with lots of thought and talent behind, they're all going bankrupt and getting fired right now.

It's truly a tragedy - the loss of art is so much more serious than people seem to think it is, considering how integral all kinds of creative works are to a modern human live. Just imagine all of that being without any thought, just statistically optimized for enjoyment... ugh.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#359
post #297

There are two different questions at play here, and we need to be careful what we wish for. The first concern is the most legitimate one: can I stop an LLM from training itself on my data? This should be possible and Perplexity should absolutely make it easy to block them from training. The second concern, though, is can Perplexity do a live web query to my website and present data from my website in a format that th…

> can I stop an LLM from training itself on my data? This should be possible and Perplexity should absolutely make it easy to block them from training. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but why? And what do you mean by “your data” here?

By "my data" he means the data a site spent time and money to create and publish.

Re: Perplexity AI is lying about their user agent

#360
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously not legal advice and I doubt it's entirely settled law, but probably this step > What if I decide to offer that script as a service for free to friends and family, who can use my cloud server? You're allowed to make copies and adaptations in order to utilize the program (website), which probably covers a cloud server you yourself are controlling. You aren't allowed to do other things with those copies thoug…

Why is that the line and not a paid web browser? What about a paid web browser whose primary feature is a really powerful ad blocker?

Why are you ignoring his main argument?
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