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Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

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Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#351

Post by orthecreedence »

gwern wrote: post #226
Keyframe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this reminds me of Lispen of ye olde.. wait untill it clicks, man!

He mentions Common Lisp as something he did a game in, and you can see the link he praises https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72y2EC5fkcE as basically a very well-developed Lisp image approach with timetravel debugging etc aimed at game dev. So the implicit comparison to Lisps is sort of a big undercurrent to this whole article.

A lot of the stuff he mentions he wants I kept thinking "Oh, you want common lisp!"

I dabbled in some game dev in CL and loved it. I think the ideal would be low level engine, lisp on top driving it. If you could do it without the FFI barrier slowing things down a crazy amount, it would be the killer combo.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#353

Post by littlestymaar »

jvanderbot wrote: post #295
littlestymaar wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at the cost of latency and throughput. Compared to what? Doing epoll manually?

Threading, probably.

I don't think so, because there isn't a performance drawback compared to threads when using async. In fact there's literally nothing preventing you from using a thread per task as your future runtime and just blocking on `.await` (and implementing something like that is a common introduction to how async executors run under the hood so it's not particularly convoluted).

Sure there's no reason to do that, because non-blocking syscalls are just better, but you can…

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#354

Post by pcwalton »

meheleventyone wrote: post #350
pcwalton wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say Rust does have that big ticket ecosystem push. Microsoft has been embracing Rust lately, with things like official Windows bindings [1]. The bigger problem is just inertia: large game engines are enormous. [1]: https://github.com/microsoft/windows-rs

I'd say the inertia is far more social than codebase size related. Right now whilst there are pockets of interest there is no broader reason to switch. Bevy as the leading contender isn't going to magic it's way to being capable of shipping AAA titles unless a studio actually adopts it. I don't think it's actually shipped a commercially successful indie game yet. Also game engines emphatically don't have to be huge.…

There are a few successful games like Tunnet [1] written in Bevy.

[1]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2286390/Tunnet/

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#355

Post by lelanthran »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #148

I've been thinking of embarking on a Rust/GUI/Game. Guess, this will save some grief. Is Rust the future? Will this situation improve? I've been wanting to like Rust, but this seems to be indictment.

> Is Rust the future? Will this situation improve?

I don't follow this too closely, but I have not seen any indications that any of the frustrations expressed in the article are on a Rust roadmap.

IOW, just about everything in that article is a `WONTFIX` or `NOTABUG` for the Rust maintainers.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#356

Post by sanderjd »

martin-t wrote: post #151
sanderjd wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I just read about 10 versions of this comment on this page, and definitely not a single response to the criticism that could be described as incendiary. I don't think I even saw a single comment just now that fundamentally pushed back on the premise of this article, let alone in an incendiary way. It's early yet, and maybe this thread will look very different in a few hours though?

I assure you it happens, but the people targetted this way usually quickly learn what is ok and what isn't to say, especially on rust's reddit. If you wanna see examples, look at my reddit profile (same username). I dared to say bevy was full of hype and false promises and tat the money they get would be better spent elsewhere. And look at the hate i received. One way i've seen to reduce this is prefixing any posts w…

I guess I interpreted the comment as meaning that the incendiary responses were going to be seen here. I would expect incendiary responses to anything I post on reddit...

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#357

Post by holoduke »

kibwen wrote: post #221
Animats wrote: post #137

That's a good article. He's right about many things. I've been writing a metaverse client in Rust for several years now. Works with Second Life and Open Simulator servers. Here's some video.[1] It's about 45,000 lines of safe Rust. Notes: * There are very few people doing serious 3D game work in Rust. There's Veloren, and my stuff, and maybe a few others. No big, popular titles. I'd expected some AAA title to be writ…

> I'd expected some AAA title to be written in Rust by now. I'm disinclined to believe that any AAA game will be written in Rust (one is free to insert "because Rust's gamedev ecosystem is immature" or "because AAA game development is increasingly conservative and risk-averse" at their discretion), yet I'm curious what led you to believe this. C++ became available in 1985, and didn't become popular for gamedev until…

Many tried c++ in early 90s, but wasnt it too slow/memory intensive? You had to implement lots of inline c/assembly to have a bit of performance. Nowadays everything is heavily optimized, but back then not.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#358

Post by mrkeen »

meinersbur wrote: post #338
mrkeen wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My priorities are reasonable performances and the fastest iteration time possible. I bought Mount & Blade II Bannerlord in 2020-03-30. I love it to death, but come on... // 2024-02-01 $ curl https://www.taleworlds.com/en/News/552 | grep "Fixed a crash that" | wc -l 29 // 2023-12-21 $ curl https://www.taleworlds.com/en/News/549 | grep "Fixed a crash that" | wc -l 6 // 2023-12-14 $ curl https://www.taleworlds.com/en/…

My impression is that this is due to their non-robust programming style. They do not add fallback behavior when e.g. receiving a null object. It would still be a bug, but could be a log entry instead of crash.

> My impression is that this is due to their non-robust programming style.

It's been 50+ years. I don't think that it's worthwhile just telling the programmer to do a better job.

> They do not add fallback behavior when e.g. receiving a null object. It would still be a bug, but could be a log entry instead of crash.

This is a pretty big feedback loop:

  * The programmer puts the null into the code
  * The code is released
  * The right conditions occur and the player triggers it
  * IF DONE SKILLFULLY AND CORRECTLY the game is able to recover from the null-dereference, write it out to a log, and get that log back to the developers.
  * The programmer takes the null out of the code.
If you don't do the first step, you don't get stuck doing the others either.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#360

Post by meheleventyone »

pcwalton wrote: post #354
meheleventyone wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say the inertia is far more social than codebase size related. Right now whilst there are pockets of interest there is no broader reason to switch. Bevy as the leading contender isn't going to magic it's way to being capable of shipping AAA titles unless a studio actually adopts it. I don't think it's actually shipped a commercially successful indie game yet. Also game engines emphatically don't have to be huge.…

There are a few successful games like Tunnet [1] written in Bevy. [1]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2286390/Tunnet/

Looks cool and well received but at ~300ish reviews hardly a shining beacon if we extrapolate sales from that. But I'll say that's a good start.
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