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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#351
post #132
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey Dang, huge fan of HN. How do you reconcile HN's political neutrality and the fact that almost every overtly political story that hits the front page about certain subjects[1] are blatantly biased on one side? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324

I think it's a legit concern and it worries me too. We can only go by the articles that users submit, and then only the subset we see, which is a function of (a) randomness and (b) users bringing specific cases to our attention. If there's a bias in the stories that have made HN's front page, that bias is present in the underlying data (I mean this stream of articles) to begin with. Why might that be? Well, there are…

dang - Productive and honest public discourse is arguably the most important issue in the world right now - arguably our greatest need. And that seems to depend on moderation.

Ideally, with sufficiently effective moderation technique any groups could be brought together and talk it out. We'll never reach that ideal but my point is, moderation has incredible potential value.

You've done a good job of it here, you're thoughtful about it, probably you have studied and learned more than fits in HN comments. You might do whatever research remains and write a book. I hope you will!

> I'm always open to hearing arguments about how to apply them more even-handedly. When people make a fair point, such as xyzelement did about the submitted URL of the OP (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39621225), we're happy to change something. Another example that sticks in my mind is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39146630 from a few weeks ago. That was about title, not URL, but the principle is the same.

Probably you've thought of it, but it's not even-handed when strict scrutiny is applied to some positions but not others. OTOH, I appreciate that hot topics get a different level of scrutiny.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 10% would be considered an extremely high death rate for soldiers involved in the fighting. Even 2.5% for healthcare workers is ridiculously high. Hamas based their operations where conventional rules of war prohibit fire. That makes comparing casualty rates incredibly difficult. (To my knowledge, nobody else has done this so comprehensively. Though given its success, I expect it to be emulated. Which unfortunately…

>Though given its success, I expect it to be emulated. I'm wondering by what metric do you define success.

The first time in Palestinian history that they took and held Israeli territory after 1948 for any length of time.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not a country in the world that wouldn't be doing what Israel is doing in Israels position Many would do it better. To my knowledge, there have been zero prosecutions of misbehaving soldiers on the Israeli side. Netanyahu should be removed from power—his chaos created the opening for Hamas, and he’s tainted as a partisan in America. And insisting on a permanent military occupation of Gaza is such a stupid thing to…

Find me a list of countries which have suffered a proportional death toll in civilians to a terrorist attack and have a response as measured as what you're describing. In terms of dead per total population this would be the equivalent of 13 9/11s.

Find me a list of countries that ethnically cleansed a population of millions and put them under occupation and treat them like less than humans. You know that history of human being did not start in 2023.

Israel is not in a normal conflict. It is an occupation force and their government seeks to prevent Palestinians from having their state and some elements want to destroy them once and for all.

Edit: sorry I thought that you did not want to go in pointless discussion. Cannot delete that now.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#354
post #26

Besides the statistics I advise anyone to also look at the reports of how the individual deaths happened, I've seen them very little discussed in western media. There's often enough evidence to show an extremely likely deliberate killing (usually with weapons that Hamas doesn't have). Journalists have been killed outside of the Gaza strip as well. Just make your own informed opinion. Furthermore, there have been so f…

It would be great if you could share some of this credible evidence. There are so many loose claims flying around ...

> Furthermore, there have been so few western journalists on the ground because Israel (and Egypt) prevented them from entering, I think this prohibition alone should be considered unacceptable in the 21 century

Access to war zones has been limited commonly, IIRC, at least since the Iraq war. In Ukraine, journalists talk about government cooperation and, IIRC, approval.

If you are thinking about Vietnam, I think that has become more of the exception than the rule. (I think that in a free society, it should be the rule.)

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#355
post #338
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to the reliability of some more reputable news sources, anyhow... https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/feb/04/cnn-staff-pro-...

Interesting since in my book CNN is very anti-Israeli. Maybe not as anti-Israeli as The Guardian. The "funny" thing is that if some consider you pro-Israeli and some consider you anti-Israeli that doesn't mean you're neutral. It all depends on your viewpoint. I feel that will take a long time to be able to actually look at the current events with perspective when we have more facts and less emotions. Right now we're…

> Interesting since in my book CNN is very anti-Israeli.

CNN is openly requiring a pro-Israeli bias in reporting for this war, and apparently before that.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/feb/04/cnn-staff-pro-...

https://theintercept.com/2024/03/01/cnn-christiane-amanpour-...

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#356
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Essentially that implies Israel will get shot at and not be allowed to shoot back. I suspect most Israelis would find that unreasonable. Israeli civilians don't like being killed anymore than Palestinian civilians do. The thing that usually prevents war is that both sides lose in the end. If only one side is allowed to shoot, why would the side being allowed to shoot ever stop? They would be getting all the benefits…

> Israel will get shot at and not be allowed to shoot back. The logic doesn't really follow What shots exactly? the missiles? Attack the launch sites. They're pretty clear as they expose themselves. Israel has 24/7 surveillance it shouldn't be a challenge. Can you support your claim by showing evidence that a hospital was used to launch missiles? You likely don't have evidence that Israel is targeting anything. It se…

> What shots exactly?

I would be referring to all forms of military violence, whether that be guns, rockets or something else.

I also believe if the facility was being used to conduct the war in a significant capacity, e.g. as an ammunition store or as a command and control center then it becomes fair game. Just waiting around for someone to open fire, shoot back only when they are firing, and letting them escape back to their base of operations is not a way to prevent future attacks and puts the defender at an unreasonable disadvantage.

This should still be subject to the doctrine of porportionality and discrimination of course.

> Can you support your claim by showing evidence that a hospital was used to launch missiles?

I never claimed that. It is especially impossible to show since hamas has not been using missiles in this conflict as far as i know. Perhaps you mean rockets?

My main claim is that if the hospital is being used in any significant capacity to conduct military operations it is reasonable that it could be targeted. Whether any specific instance in this war is justified - i don't know, i don't have the full picture of what happened and i don't know what Israel knew at the time of targeting (intent matters). More to the point, i do not believe that allowing hamas impunity so long as they co-locate their activity near civilians is reasonable.

> You likely don't have evidence that Israel is targeting anything.

Only circumstantial based on the civilian death ratio being much lower in this conflict than in other wars where the military bombed indiscriminately.

Generally crimes have an innocent until proven guiltly element. The onus is on evidence is the other way around.

> That's a massacre not a "response".

Whether or not it is ever justified to bomb a hospital is a very different conversation than whether the actions in this specific conflict are justified. For the latter the details matter a lot.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#357
post #335
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What matters most from the journalists is their video reports, especially the live ones In the current situation I don't think Hamas can exert very much control on the population, anyhow. The handful of times that other journalists managed to enter, by the way, they confirmed what had been reported ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdIZmZr29L0 )

I expect Hamas is still exerting plenty of control. I'm not sure what "confirmed what had been reported" really means here. The problem isn't that we're necessarily getting outright lies and fake news (I'm sure we're getting some), but that we're getting a very selective and emotional view into the horrors of war. There's zero doubt that the impact of the war on Gaza is immense and so there's zero doubt that journali…

I think some of those arguments verge into the 'there is no truth, it's all a matter of how you paint it' territory, which is the argument of disinformation and propaganda (I'm saying it not to accuse the parent; I assume they don't want disinfo, etc.)

Objectively, Israel has caused a very high rate of civilian deaths, destruction of property, and is causing a near-famine or famine.

People argue that such outcomes are unavoidable, but they are happening. I think that the news media would be dishonest to paint a different picture than that.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Find me a list of countries which have suffered a proportional death toll in civilians to a terrorist attack and have a response as measured as what you're describing. In terms of dead per total population this would be the equivalent of 13 9/11s.

Find me a list of countries that ethnically cleansed a population of millions and put them under occupation and treat them like less than humans. You know that history of human being did not start in 2023. Israel is not in a normal conflict. It is an occupation force and their government seeks to prevent Palestinians from having their state and some elements want to destroy them once and for all. Edit: sorry I though…

>Find me a list of countries that ethnically cleansed a population of millions and put them under occupation and treat them like less than humans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1508wboZXk

Closer and dearer to Palestine one only need to look at how the Copts are treated in Egypt, the Kurds in Turkey and the Marsh Arabs in Iraq.

>You know that history of human being did not start in 2023.

Very good, so you should remember that the Palestinians are under occupation because of the failed pan-arabic genocide against the Jews of 1948 and the many attempted rematches since.

>Israel is not in a normal conflict. It is an occupation force and their government seeks to prevent Palestinians from having their state and some elements want to destroy them once and for all.

Which state? Hamas has been in open rebellion against the Palestinian authority for 20 years.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why are they hitting the refuge camps with 2000lb dumb bombs? Why not guided bombs? In my eyes, this is cast-iron proof that there is little concern on IDF side for civilian deaths. I do not see a plausible counter-argument

“Refugee camp” is just a legal designation for certain areas in the Gaza Strip. It refers to “refugees” from events that took place decades before almost anyone in the Gaza Strip was even born.

It's a dense urban area, it has civilians and children.

That bomb is large enough to level an apartment block, so ~100 casualties and they don't know where it will land. Who are they targeting with that type of bomb, 1 Hamas fighter hiding among population?

It's error margin is in hundreds of meters. You are not allowed to kill 100 innocent people in the hopes (not certainty!) of getting 1 enemy soldier. That's exactly what 'indiscriminate killing of civilians' means.

That is why United States has never used this size of bomb, let alone unguided, in it's recent wars in Urban areas. They were also fighting guerrilla fighters - Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc.

The act of using this weapon in Urban area is a war crime, just as it would be a war crime to use chemical weapons, etc.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hamas is notorious for colocating themselves among civilians. I despise Hamas, but this claim is disingenuous propaganda (by the leaders who make it, not the parent who repeats it): First, Hamas is 'notorious' for it because it's endlessly repeated by their enemies. That rhetoric doesn't make anything true. (Haven't we had the Internet long enough that people know it well by now?) Second, Hamas is an assymetric, ir…

I agree with the premise that Hamas wouldn't be able to fight open battles. But it doesn't make using human shields (directly by putting military infrastructure in civilian ones or indirectly by not distinguishing themselves) not their fault. The death of human shields is their responsibility, and their alone (without getting into details of which part of dead civilians is actually due to being human shields). Of cou…

> why would you justify it?

Let's not start accusing each other. Drop the BS.

> using human shields (directly by putting military infrastructure in civilian ones or indirectly by not distinguishing themselves)

That doesn't mean they are using human shields (and it doesn't mean they are not): Asymetric forces need to blend into the environment - the mountains, the city, etc. In the city, that means blending into the civilian population - it doesn't require any intent to use them as shields (but they still could intend it - they even could intend to cause civilian deaths to drive world opinion).

> The death of human shields is their responsibility, and their alone

The asymetric force is at least partly to blame for the deaths of civilians, but that doesn't excuse the 'symmetric' force (is there a better term?) from all laws of war and basic human morality. They can still minimize civilian death and still follow rules of proportionality - Israel can't justify nuking the Gaza strip because Hamas is hiding among civilians.

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