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Facing reality about the EU is a core requirement for good management

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Re: Facing reality about the EU is a core requirement for good management

#351

Post by Lutger »

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #295
drooopy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the rise of far right populist parties, Europe tends to lean more on the left side of the political spectrum compared to America, and corporate worship is a relatively new thing over here. People tend to have more faith in governments and treat companies with more distrust, compared to the US which seems to be the other way around.

I don't think Americans worship corporations. They mistrust them too. But your threat model is messed up if you're more scared of Microsoft or your ISP abusing you than your government abusing you. The latter has way more potential for harm, and it's exacting that harm with your tax dollars to boot.

You make the same point very well.

In the threat model of the average European, corporations are actually seen as a higher risk. Maybe with less impact, but the risk is a lot higher. And they mistrust and complain about the state too, a ton, just a lot less.

Most Europeans don't think the state is evil, just incompetent. Though that sentiment is on the rise too since the covid conspiracies, and still fueled by Russian and Chinese disinfo campaigns.

Re: Facing reality about the EU is a core requirement for good management

#352

Post by everforward »

immibis wrote: post #274
davidmurdoch wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've learned to never attack the cookie banner here on HN. EU citizens seem to absolutely adore them here.

No, it's just counterproductive to attack warning signs instead of attacking the thing they are warning you about.

You can attack both when the people trying to warn you are incompetent. This was an obvious second order effect; if they tell businesses "we don't want you to do this, so you can't unless you put up a sign" it should never be a surprise to see signs sprouting up on the landscape.

Teenagers could have predicted this was the likely outcome.

Whoever wrote it was either incredibly incompetent in not predicting this outcome or intended this outcome.

Re: Facing reality about the EU is a core requirement for good management

#353

Post by megaman821 »

brummm wrote: post #233
drooopy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the rise of far right populist parties, Europe tends to lean more on the left side of the political spectrum compared to America, and corporate worship is a relatively new thing over here. People tend to have more faith in governments and treat companies with more distrust, compared to the US which seems to be the other way around.

While you are right, I think the better formulation is that the US is just super to the right of the normal political spectrum. In Europe you have a pretty good spread across the whole spectrum across the many countries, but in the US the left really doesn't exist as a party. Even the Democrats would be a conservative party in most other countries.

What European country is socially to the left of Democrats? This is only a little bit true in terms of economics.

Re: Facing reality about the EU is a core requirement for good management

#354

Post by Isinlor »

roenxi wrote: post #51

I quite like the article as far as it goes; but this begs the follow up question - is the strategy working? Because for all their standards and harmonisation, the manufacturing is happening in China and the decisions are being made in North America. This should be an article about how Nokia or equivalent is approaching the US all wrong and not understanding the realities on the ground. I'd put energy in a similar fra…

On the basic premise EU is working wonderfully.

It's the longest period in our thousand years history that we Poles have not had to fight Germans.

We have lost maybe even 1/3 of population in wars with Sweden, 1/5 of population in war with Germany.

Poland didn't exist or 123 years under Russian, Prussian and Austrian occupation.

Given that as a baseline, I'm really grateful for the EU.

Re: Facing reality about the EU is a core requirement for good management

#355

Post by davidmurdoch »

immibis wrote: post #345
doktrin wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> See? I see you being deliberately antagonistic and strawmanning an opinion you disagree with.

I will never understand "I said $dumb_thing and the fact everyone downvoted me for saying $dumb_thing proves that $dumb_thing is right!"

That's the same logic cookie banner lovers are using in this very post. I am just matching that energy.

Have you really not noticed how defensive and antagonistic cookie banner supporters become when people say anything negative about it?

Re: Facing reality about the EU is a core requirement for good management

#356

Post by kbolino »

pydry wrote: post #44
mjburgess wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does seem they've mistaken the general sentiment towards government regulation in europe, which is typically, "more, better". Since we have so many consumer protections, much of how we end up engaging with the law around business practices is to our benefit . We're always aware we can raise bad business practices with an ombudsman (etc.). So our lived experience of government regulation is, in large part, positive…

>It does seem they've mistaken the general sentiment towards government regulation in europe, which is typically, "more, better". The notion of regulation as being on a sliding scale where "more is worse" was a manufactured American meme created by the Kochs in the 1980s. It emerged from some of their epic fights with the environmental protection agency and their subsequent lobbying and public relations outreach effo…

Given that the EPA was happy to watch American industry die on the vine while foreign competitors operating under different regulatory regimes swooped in, the "manufactured American meme" had some merit. Regulation has to be responsive. Of course, a lack of responsiveness, or even basic consideration for the average person, has defined the U.S. Government as a whole for the better part of several decades.

Ever since industrial workers sided with Nixon, the government has become a class warfare tool where highly educated but not-that-well compensated professional managers have worked to denigrate and disenfranchise the rough-and-tumble bullies from their primary school days. This deep-seated resentment explains a lot more than money alone explains, especially since the government itself is in control of the money supply and thus not that beholden to monied interests.

Re: Facing reality about the EU is a core requirement for good management

#357

Post by davidmurdoch »

hef19898 wrote: post #335
davidmurdoch wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

From the HN guidelines: >> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

Those are good guidelines

Re: Facing reality about the EU is a core requirement for good management

#358

Post by capr »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #10

What amazes and perplexes me is that Apple thinks it can effectively play politics against the EU and that somehow their customers will back them in the face of the "consequences" Apple applies, which are pretty transparent and really quite amateurish (eg no more web apps for you!). As the article states, the first mistake Apple makes is thinking the EU is somehow like the US, but I can't see how any large proportion…

ah yes, the "everybody who doesn't agree with me must be brainwashed" cliche

Re: Facing reality about the EU is a core requirement for good management

#359

Post by Lutger »

llm_trw wrote: post #82
dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #10

What amazes and perplexes me is that Apple thinks it can effectively play politics against the EU and that somehow their customers will back them in the face of the "consequences" Apple applies, which are pretty transparent and really quite amateurish (eg no more web apps for you!). As the article states, the first mistake Apple makes is thinking the EU is somehow like the US, but I can't see how any large proportion…

I think there needs to be a word like "Paris syndrome" for when Americans meet actual Europeans and find out their politics. I've not met anyone who doesn't work in Brussels who thinks the EU isn't a dysfunctional pile of shit. The most spirited defense I've heard of it is "Well at least it keeps the Germans from invading again.". > The EU, it's better than genocide, by a bit - probably. -- Enthusiastic EU supporter,…

I feel the complete opposite. I think the EU is the most efficient and enlightened bureaucracy there is, and it is going to save our ass, and maybe the ass of the rest of the world too. I have more trust in the EU techno-bureaucrats than in the government of my own country. The more EU the better as far as I am concerned. The EU is awesome.

Re: Facing reality about the EU is a core requirement for good management

#360

Post by interactivecode »

mjburgess wrote: post #218
kerkeslager wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two systems at play when you see a cookie warning: 1. Businesses trying to violate your privacy. 2. A government trying to protect you from said businesses. Either of these entities could avoid the cookie warning, but there are very different reasons why they do not.

and to be clear, the european attitude to this regulation would be, "try again, better this time" not ah yes, let's go back to having no regulation of corps tracking people. People would be quite enthusiastic to more regulation which required no cookie banners where users had, eg., expressed a preference for no tracking at the browser level. And likewise, to require the provision of such "no-tracking signals". I susp…

> "try again, better this time"

this is so true and kind of hilarious to see Americans not understand this. When a regulation happens and it's day to day effects are not working out great. The answer will always be to regulate more, add more rules and restrict things more.

The EU is inclined not to create regulations at first. They prefer to hold meetings, seminars and inform companies of their effects to encourage them to self regulate. If after years this does not help they will either:

A) create subsidies to help companies implement changes. but only if they have shown they are will to interact with the EU governing bodies.

or

B) Add rules and regulations to force companies to act a certain way.

The beautiful disconnect pointed out in the article where Apple thinks the meetings are negotiation and EU is basically showing that their smiles and friendly words are just formalities and change is happening no matter what Apple thinks or not.

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