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Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

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Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#351

Post by AlecSchueler »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #99
AlecSchueler wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a scam perpetuated by the plastic industry What does this actually mean and what are you basing it on? Without any sources or references it reads a bit like FUD.

I guess it might refer to the fact that 80% of the plastic produced ends up in landfills and it's not recycled, for different reasons, one of them is that recycling plastic is very expensive. Also there are several different types of plastic that do not melt together, or do not melt at all, and can't be easily recycled or reused. It also degrades and becomes more toxic on every cycle and, unlike glass, health safety…

That's fine but calling it a scam by the plastic industry suggests intention, bad inventing, from the plastic industry. I'm asking if that's the case.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#352

Post by AlecSchueler »

thrdbndndn wrote: post #101
AlecSchueler wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Compared to glass container, plastic ones are much lighter, harder to break, flexible, malleable, .. the list goes on. Yes but they also have the huge waste issue and society isn't doing enough to deal with it. The drawbacks are also huge, the cost just isn't an issue for the companies putting the plastic out into the world. It's more cost effective because we allow it to be, because we subsidise the oil industry,…

> they also have the huge waste issue That goes without saying. The point is plastic is not only cheaper but also better (in term of functionality) and that's a problem we need solving to actually get ordinary people on the wagon. Reflecting their environment impact into cost with tax etc. is cool, but that's not enough. Eating out and food delivery being 2x or even sometimes 10x more expensive than making food yours…

It also goes without saying that's its materially preferable in many cases. But for a business preferable generally comes down to profitable. The point I was driving at is that by withdrawing subsidies from these industries we can nudge the trade off point to a place that more often selects for environmental options.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#353

Post by conductr »

speff wrote: post #220
lupire wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not Coke vs Pepsi and pricing competition (Coke costs more than it's competitors), it's using a useless manufacturered product and shipping water in a can instead of drinking from the tap and adding a scoop of sugar and spice of your want.

It is still a pricing competition. Sure Coke costs more, but they're also riding on their brand recognition to bump up their perceived value. No amount of brand loyalty would save them if they had to undergo the price jump that comes with a massive logistics change of switching off of plastic without a proven alternative. It might cost a buck more per 6pack for Coke right now - but people aren't going to get it if it…

Not sure if that's true. Soda has tripled in the last few years mostly just due to corp greed and realizing people are very stuck (addicted?) to their preferred flavors. Pepsi and Coke are competitors but not substitutes.

https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/coca-cola-s...

https://www.vox.com/money/23979340/diet-coke-price-coca-cola...

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#354

Post by ezrast »

infecto wrote: post #270
azemetre wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about just banning plastics (it should be banned involving anything food related IMO) but actually taxing these materials as the hazardous materials they surely are. Why would you ever expect a bottling plant to move away from plastic when there is no incentive? Why would anyone move to better materials or continue researching when there are cheaper alternatives that aren't rightfully taxed against th…

I don't think I generally agree with a plastic tax but lets imagine there was one. I am honestly not even sure how you would set the price, my whole point is the externalities are hard to measure. I also suspect the cost of the implementation will be on the shoulders of the consumer. We can hand wave it away and say we can create more rules to prevent it but at the end of the day that is most likely what will happen.

There's no reason the tax needs to directly reflect the environmental impact. We figure out an amount that is enough to change corporate behavior without bankrupting them, maybe with some kind of sliding scale to put more responsibility on larger businesses who would otherwise benefit from regulatory capture, throw in some exceptions for the aforementioned medical devices, etc. "Pricing the externalities in" is a nice political justification but in reality this kind of thing happens because we've already decided that plastics are significantly worse than the alternative and we want to incentivize change.

Regarding consumers shouldering the cost - well, yeah, regulation drives prices up; even my liberal self agrees that that's broadly true. Those same consumers will be shouldering the cost of an environment permeated by toxic microplastics, which we are increasingly being driven to believe will be a greater impact than that of more expensive consumer goods.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#355

Post by lobochrome »

Mistletoe wrote: post #318
lobochrome wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first principle hack here is to put the waste stream separation burden on the consumer. Here in Japan we are sorting and packaging our trash all at home and putting it out to be collected individually. There is - cardboard (to be cut flat and bundled with string) - unlaminated and clean paper (to be bundled with string or collected in a paper bag) - PET (clean, no bottle cap, label removed) - Milk cartons above 1…

I’m just laughing to myself considering the thought of getting Americans to cut open milk cartons, flatten them, and tie them up with string. It will never ever happen. I don’t know why. They think they are too busy or they are too messy. Why? I don’t know. It’s a very complicated long question and I don’t know the answer. Not all cons, maybe the American economy leads the world because the people here left their hom…

Agreed. In the beginning it’s a bit strange, but by now it’s a cherished Saturday morning ritual. I also police the family if they don’t cut them up nicely.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#356

Post by lobochrome »

duderific wrote: post #342
lobochrome wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first principle hack here is to put the waste stream separation burden on the consumer. Here in Japan we are sorting and packaging our trash all at home and putting it out to be collected individually. There is - cardboard (to be cut flat and bundled with string) - unlaminated and clean paper (to be bundled with string or collected in a paper bag) - PET (clean, no bottle cap, label removed) - Milk cartons above 1…

> Collection happens at central points shared by a few houses. So if you fuck it up, your neighbors will know. > Collection happens through individual small trucks and the guy check the items and sort them directly into larger bins. If you made a mistake they will label it and leave it behind. See, that's the key. In my area, we have compost, recycling and trash bins for each home. What you put in it is up to your mo…

Yes. It’s a delicate net of social control. I really wish social scientists would study this more. Can’t be genetic after all.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#357

Post by rad_gruchalski »

madeofpalk wrote: post #330
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope it is less expensive. So do the shareholders. Less cost == more profit.

You say this as if it's a bad thing? I don't see the need to be pesemistic about this.

No, I state the fact.

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#358

Post by queuebert »

tpmoney wrote: post #293
Hizonner wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what's more efficient than glass? Ship the product in bulk and dispense it into the customer's container. And a lot of products could actually be formulated on site, because most of, say, your cleaning aisle is various combinations of relatively few standard components. The biggest barrier there are certain people's desires to control information and to create the perception of distinctions that don't exist.

While I’m a big fan of being able to buy quantities in bulk, it’s worth remembering we did just go through a 3 year period that should illuminate why “every Tom, Dick and Harry brings their likely barely washed if not fully contaminated packaging from home and uses the community ladle to scoop out of the community bin into their bag” might not be the best default. At least with factory -> sanitized individual wrappin…

Are you aware that fruits and vegetables are sold individually without packaging?

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#359

Post by lobochrome »

themaninthedark wrote: post #334
gwbas1c wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I spend about an hour sorting trash each week That gets to the clear difference between Japanese culture and US culture. Americans will sort their trash, but they won't spend that much time sorting their trash. Japanese culture has an immense amount of civic pride and responsibility that isn't present in the US.

>Collection happens at central points shared by a few houses. So if you fuck it up, your neighbors will know. >Collection happens through individual small trucks and the guy check the items and sort them directly into larger bins. If you made a mistake they will label it and leave it behind. Part of it is the fact that neighbors police each other. Culturally we tend to reject when others are intruding in our business…

But one of the beautiful things of living here is to witness (positiv) societal change happening in crazy speed.

It used to be that people smoked everywhere, 10 years ago certain districts started prohibiting smoking in the street and relegated smokers to certain corners, today this corners have been replaced by closed containers with air conditioning and filtration systems.

It sometimes feels magical…

Re: Heinz’s sustainable ketchup cap

#360

Post by jwells89 »

audunw wrote: post #260
jrochkind1 wrote: post #223

> Currently only about 3% of PP products are being recycled in the United States, but it is becoming more widely accepted So now the relatively small amount of mass in the cap is just as recyclable as the bottle itself -- neither are actually going to be recycled. There's nothing to see here but marketing. And a an interesting engineering puzzle solved, sure. "How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Woul…

But PP is one of the plastics that CAN be recycled, and IS recycled, often at a much higher rate than in the US. One of the barriers of effectively recycling PP is the mixing of materials in packaging. I know some brands in my country switched labels to make sure the bottle was uniform and recognises by recycling machines as PP. So what Heinz is doing here is actually meaningful. The other problem USA has is poor edu…

I would say a significant portion of the burden, perhaps the majority, lies on food companies for using so many different types of packaging. Sorting discarded packaging into N bins is exactly the kind of overhead in day-to-day life that a lot of people simply don’t have time for and causes friction that makes it less likely to be adopted by the people who do.

Regulations that greatly limit the total number of packaging types may be of help here.

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