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"Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

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351–360 of 417 posts

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#351

> The whistleblower, whom The Bureau is calling D.M., immigrated to Canada as an international student from India, making him a minority among mostly Chinese-Canadian co-workers at the Aurora branch. > “I am going to reveal potential mortgage fraud at HSBC Bank Canada and possibly some employees benefited from the fraud, financially pocketing thousands of dollars, which I call the proceeds of crime.” > FINTRAC’s stud…

Your first thought is to.. assume the bank is probably misunderstood?

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vacant homes are a problem for anyone who needs housing. But they pay taxes without demanding any services and the seller assessed they had better use of the capital, they could buy or build a more suitable home. If I lived in a location with 50% vacant homes all paying property taxes then wouldn’t my schools and streets and all local government services be extremely well funded?

> If I lived in a location with 50% vacant homes all paying property taxes then wouldn’t my schools and streets and all local government services be extremely well funded If the polity is smart, yes. It looks like British Columbia gets about 15% of its revenue from property taxes and transfers [1]. So you'd need adjustments to make up for the personal, corporate, sales, fuel, carbon, tobacco and insurance premium (?)…

Assuming the drop in social program expenditure doesn't already compensate for the drop in tax revenue.

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, remember it's capitalism doing this, not Chinese, Indian, Canadian or American. hail free market.

This is not an inherent feature of capitalism. This is a failure of the government to create a fair market. This is caused by people that are subverting the rules to out compete the people playing by the rules.

I have seen a lot that smaller, high trust places where people worry about long term reputation, status etc are not good at competing with large immigrant populations who do not have any stake in maintaining a reputation in the community.

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahaha, the bubble popping. That'll be the day. All they're doing is increasing house prices for no reason. Houses are now just casino chips for rich people.

On the other hand if it doesn't pop, then it literally doesn't matter if the income documents were fake, as the bank has good collateral and giving the loan turned out not to be a mistake.

Oh, and think of the tax revenue! ;)

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#355

> The whistleblower, whom The Bureau is calling D.M., immigrated to Canada as an international student from India, making him a minority among mostly Chinese-Canadian co-workers at the Aurora branch. > “I am going to reveal potential mortgage fraud at HSBC Bank Canada and possibly some employees benefited from the fraud, financially pocketing thousands of dollars, which I call the proceeds of crime.” > FINTRAC’s stud…

Are US banks just a lot more strict about source of income than Canadian banks?

Yes, but it’s partly the government’s fault. There’s literally no way for mortgage lenders to pull your tax records in order to verify income. There used to be some third party services to connect to the CRA but they got shut down and replaced with… nothing.

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#356
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They accepted copies of my American credit history and bank statements, but had no real way to verify their truth I'm skeptical here, given how closely the US and Canada work together, both US and Canadian banks share an incredible amount of info with each other and not solely because of cross-border commerce. There is also a non-trivial number of US citizens living and working in Canada so there are services avail…

If you have information that contradicts what multiple banks have told me I would love to know it, since it would be very nice to have that information available to my Canadian bankers. In the 3 banks I've worked with in Canada, all were completely unable to access my American credit history. The governments do share tax data, but AFAIK the banks have no way to link "John Smith SSN:123-45-6789" to "John Smith SIN:098…

Yes this is accurate. I work at a lender that operated in both Canada and the US and the credit bureau integrations were with totally different companies and had different APIs (even for Equifax on both sides of the border)

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#357

To maybe offer a different perspective: I think the Canadian mortgages linked to Chinese accounts will likely all be paid. What may be happening is that there is a lot of underground chinese financial activity that is not recorded in Canada and part of this 'network' is utilized to get money out of china.

> I think the Canadian mortgages linked to Chinese accounts will likely all be paid. This is a "heads, I win", "tails, you lose" type of scam. The mortgage holders are all judgement proof. They have no income or assets to go after. So if the housing market crashes, the banks have no recourse. It's the same as taking out a mortgage and instead of buying a house, you go to the casino and bet double or nothing. Sure, th…

Mortgages in Canada are different than mortgages in the US in that they are full recourse. If the sale price during foreclosure doesn’t cover the costs, the banks can go after you personally for the balance. So you’d have to either a) leave the country, or b) declare bankruptcy. So, not exactly a risk-free option.

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahaha, the bubble popping. That'll be the day. All they're doing is increasing house prices for no reason. Houses are now just casino chips for rich people.

On the other hand if it doesn't pop, then it literally doesn't matter if the income documents were fake, as the bank has good collateral and giving the loan turned out not to be a mistake.

Fraud is fraud, so it does matter. Same way that SBF is still going to jail even if the people with money in FTX get their money back (via crypto rising again / the AI investment).

The real people harmed were the Canadians trying to start a family who got outbid on the house.

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if both the lender and borrower are willing participants Eventually this behavior goes overboard and everything crashes. In the meantime, law-abiding people are screwed by the bubble. Then they are made to pay for the clean up. Fraud is costly, and rationalizing it contributes to the problem.

> this behavior goes overboard and everything crashes Maybe... but you need to keep in mind most of these people are not really building a bubble. Unlike the subprime mortgage crisis, where things were built on inflated valuations, many borrowers in this "scheme" do have more than enough funds to cover the entire mortgage. It's just that their capital is relatively illiquid. This is also why the high interest rates h…

> Maybe... but you need to keep in mind most of these people are not really building a bubble.

No, I'd don't need to keep anything of the sort in mind. I've lived through multiple real-estate and speculation bubbles and crashes now. The arguments you make are the same sort heard before each one, and I can easily anticipate the rationales and excuses that will be offered after the next one.

You don't know how widespread this is. You don't know how many other banks are leaning on this latest house of cards, or how much of this is going on in the US and Europe as well. As far as the banks are concerned it's just one big world of suckers and they play these games everywhere, simultaneously.

And there is no "should." Capital controls will tighten. Wars will happen. Eventually, inevitably, the overhang destabilizes and this heinous crap will blow up.

Again.

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